There are about 5 million people who live in the modern region of Macedonia. From those and more than half of them (more than 2,500,000) have a Greek national identity, along with their Macedonian cultural identity, due to their Hellenic heritage. These people call themselves Macedonians for centuries. Another quarter has Bulgarian, Albanian, Serbian, Roma or Turkish national identity.
Then we have the one quarter of the region’s population who are the Slavic element of  Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia which ridiculously try to IMPOSE to the other 3/4 a monopoly of the term Macedonia and its derivatives. In other words, the hypocritical apologists of FYROM ignore conveniently that the inhabitants this country are the ones DENYING the right of self-determination to the other 3/4 of Macedonian region's population.
 

  I have irrefutable evidence for the EU and Greece. But, a warning,  the truth hurts. 1) Macedonia was divided between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia in 1913.
2) The Macedonian language was suppressed by the Greek government in 1936.
3) In 1926 Macedonian toponyms were changed by the Greek government.
4) From 1913 the first and last names of the people were changed from Macedonian into Greek.
5) Since 1913 you are not allowed to baptize a Macedonian baby in Aegean Macedonia with a Macedonian name.
6) From 1926 the Greek government in Aegean Macedonia erased the Macedonian writing on the church icons and replaced them with Greek letters.
7) If Aegean Macedonia was Greek why do the farms and mountains still have Macedonian names.
8) Why do the old Macedonian people not know how to speak Greek? They speak their mother tongue which is Macedonian.
9) According to the Greek government, Macedonians and Macedonian language in Aegean Macedonia does not exist. I'm asking the Greek authorities, why, in 1925 did the Greek Government print a primer in the Macedonian language.
10) What the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia (Greece) want is human rights, Macedonian schools, to restore our original Macedonian first and last names from Ioannis Patsopulos to Jovan Pachev. We do not want new borders.
11) With no fear from the Greek government to declare ourselves that we speak Macedonian and we are Macedonians, we do not have to lie and pretend that we are Greeks by descent, yes we are Greek citizens, but we are still Macedonian.  12) The Greek position is very clear and simple: Macedonians and Macedonian language does not exist. Greece is a racially homogenous State and has no minorities.I believe Greece is still using this method to this day to count people in its state. How else does one explain the Greek demographic of 98% "Pure Greek" and 2% "Muslim Greeks"?13) The  EU keeps turning a deaf ear to the truth about Greek atrocities.

Not in ancient times, not in Roman times, not during Ottoman times, not at any point in time did Greece ever have anything to do with Macedonia.  Macedonia was divided between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia in 1913.For the Greek government, until 1988, Macedonia never existed. Then suddenly after 1988 Macedonia started to exist in Greece.If  Greece wants the name Macedonia so badly then she should change her name to Macedonia.And then Mr. Nimitz can solve the dispute about the name between Macedonia and Greece.

Questions for the Greek representatives in Hague, Netherlands.1) What year was Macedonia divided between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia? 
2) What year was the Macedonian language suppressed by the Greek government? 
3) What year were the Macedonian toponyms changed by the Greek government? 
4) What year were the first and last names changed from Macedonian into Greek? 
5) Since what year you are not allowed to baptize a Macedonian baby in Aegean Macedonia with a Macedonian name?  
6) What year did the Greek government in Aegean Macedonia erase the Macedonian writing from the church icons and replace them with Greek letters? 
7) If Aegean Macedonia was Greek why do the farm names still have Macedonian names? 
Why do the old Macedonian people not know how to speak Greek? They speak their mother tongue which is Macedonian. 
9) According to the Greek government, Macedonians and Macedonian language in Aegean Macedonia does not exist. I'm asking the Greek authorities, why, in 1925 did the Greek Government print a primer in the Macedonian language? 
10) What the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia (Greece) want is human rights, Macedonian schools, to restore our original Macedonian first and last names from Ioannis Patsopulos to Jovan Pachev. 
11) With no fear from the Greek government to declare ourselves that we speak Macedonian and we are Macedonians, we do not have to lie and pretend that we are Greeks by descent, yes we are Greek citizens, but are still Macedonian.

DimitrisFind 10 words in your language  similar with old Macedonian(Greek) and then came to ICJ to find who is Macedonian(from Greek)  and who is Slav and Albanian!!! The ICJ will panish you for steeling of heritage !

I would note the former Yugoslav republic don't recognize the self-determination of the people of Taiwan.  Find a compromise name already so the world can move on to more important issues.

The hypocrisy of FYROM's Slavs is breathtaking.
- You will read the Slavic hypocrites to protest about "stealing" lands when they are the ones who first stole lands from the indigenous Greek populations of Macedonia.
- You will read the Slavic hypocrites from FYROM to protest about the right of "self-determination" when they are the ones who despite being a MINORITY in the Macedonian Region, try to monopolise the name "Macedonia" and DENY to the MAJORITY the right of "self-determination".
- You will read the Slavic hypocrites from FYROM to protest about minority rights when they are the ones who ABUSE their own minorities in the worst possible way!!!
- You will read the Slavic hypocrites from FYROM to protest about renamings of toponymies when they are the ones who firstly RENAMED all the ancient Macedonian toponymies into Slavic!
-  You will read the Slavic hypocrites from FYROM to claim the Greek heritage of ancient Macedonians, yet they cant read a single word of the Inscriptions left behind by ancient Macedonians. Let alone the fact that they invaded Balkans almost 900 years after Alexander conquered the mighty Persian empire and spread everywhere the Greek language and culture.
Have some mercy for these FYROM's Slavs and their constant self-contradictions!!! After all as their own former PM admitted, their history is a "Caricature of History" and they live into "Lies and Misinformation"!!!

Just a couple of days ago the Former PM of FYROM, Georgievski admitted publicly that (a) FYROM is stealing Greek history
(b) FYROM history is a caricature of History IMPOSED on the Slavs of FYROM and
(c)  his people are fed daily with "Lies and Misinformation".
In an interview to Radio Free Europe, the former FYROM's PM stated:
"This history about ancient Macedonia which they want today to IMPOSE US as a state policy, i call it A CARICATURE OF HISTORY, because its about Unrelated Events ,” Georgievski stated.
"Our people is bombarded daily with Lies and Misinformation, documentaries where we see that Greek history has BECAME OURS and is presented alike. For me its obvious that there is a clear distinction of the so-called ancient history of Macedonia and Slavic History. I still defend the thesis that we can rely on our Slavic Identity, our spiritual creators like St Cyrillos and Methodios, St Clemes and St Naum. This is our history where we can safely rely on. “,
Even the former PM of FYROM admitted the obvious. Cant blame him. The deliberate and systematic campaign of stealing, distortion and absorption of the history and heritage of the ancient Macedonians by the Slavs of the Former Yugoslav Republic is widely known and still in full scale even today.
Its also widely known except in your country of course that the vast majority of modern historians verify ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe. Unfortunately for our Slavic friends from FYROM, the vast majority of modern historians do not even attempt to link Slavs with ancient Macedonians.
We are aware that in the abyss of misinformation you are imposed by your state-imposed propaganda you are learning that ancient Macedonians were a "proto-slavic" people but hey...who could blame you when even your own TV plays racist videos that you are God's "special" people, the proud "Macedonoids"!!!
The readers have the chance to explore what garbage our Slavic friends in fYROM are being fed by their state propaganda.
In youtube you could easily find a racist video aired publicly nationwide during 2009 in FYROM speaking about God and his...chosen "White-Macedonoids"!!! This is the FYROM of 2011!!!

Our quasi/pseudo Hellenic historians are missing the point here. Your boys signed an agreement at the highest levels of world governance and you have been proven to have reneged on that agreement.
 
Truth is, you were never going to keep your end of the bargain that makes your boys filthy, scheming liars, not that this is anything new. We Macedonians have known this for ever, but now the world is seeing your boys for what you really are;
 
A financially, politically/morally corrupt nation and don't fool yourselves, you have always been the beggars of the EU. From day one till now, per capita you have been the number one oink oink in EU subsidy and assistance trough!
 
This whole "name game" has been a game of Russian roulette that your boys have been playing with the lives of the people of Macedonia, a game designed to politically and economically destabilize her enough that she implodes. Now the tide has turned and it is your nation that is looking a bit unbalanced.
 
Have a nice life and long live Macedonai!

Finally the civilized world and especially Europe begins to understand that we have in FYROM all the classical characteristics of a fascist regime, which are:

1) Depression of Free Expression through the Media and control of them using all the pseudodemocratic weapons given,
2) The creation of a new nationalistic ideology-mythology about the origins of the Nation, confined as far behind in History as it would be possible, in contradiction to any scientific historical interpretation or value ( I remind the Nazi ideology which originated the Arian tribe far behind in some mythical island, called Thule),
 3) Total control of the Education (I remind the constitutional prohibition of any anauthorized search over the origins of the so called "Macedonian Nation"), in order also the above nationalistic mythology to be easily spread without obstacles,
4) Hatred towards all neighbouring countries and nations, in which they discover and systematically "cultivate" alleged unredeemed national opressed minorities (in Bulgaria, Albania and Greece), which should be "liberated" one day and be annexed to the Motherland,
5) Use of "Mengele-kind" methods, like DNA analysis in order to prove that the "Nation" belongs to some superior race, in contrast to the surrounding inferior races, like the Bulgarians, whom they call "Tatars" or like the Greeks, whom they call "Ethiopians", etc. etc. etc.
 Consequently, and as far as it concerns Greece, any kind of talks and negotiations, with such a regime, have anymore no value and should be stopped till some democratic regime will finally appear in FYROM.

I am fed up with this childish language which demeans those who use it. This is meant to be a forum for debate, not a site for a slanging match.

Yet, the Greek commentators are using every bit of it!

Why (one questions himself - is that so?)
Do they have NO REAL ARGUMENTS?!

I'LL LEAVE IT TO THE NEUTRALS TO DECIDE.

Wow!!Now that greece " begged and grovelled" for some more money out of the EU; they have re-employed their "anti-Macedonian" propaganda machine.They were very "silent" in the past few months.Throughout history, you have always being very "strong" when dealing with small countries.It is in your mentality to subdue, bully or kill anyone that is weaker than yourselves.As it is the case today.You are members of the EU and NATO and you have power to demand and obstruct.You have been doing it to Macedonia as a result of the name issue and I suspect you have been doing it to Turkey due to the Cyprus issue.Whilst the  Macedonian President is talking peace and cooperation, you greeks are drawing "red lines" "erga omneses", your military are parading, screaming in the streets that they are going to "Skin the Skopians alive."Is it at all possible...I ask; has greece experienced trauma in the past, trauma that has left a lasting scar in your psyche at the hands of Philip and his Macedonian army?

How long will Europe tolerate the Greek bullying of Macedonia?

Will it be ashamed, yet again by not defending BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS?
I wonder...

Do we REALLY need a member of the EU behave like this?!
Especially now. in the mights of all that Europe is trying to prevail?

Do we need another fascist regime that Greece is?!

And do we REALLY NEED TO PAY OUT OF OUR OWN POCKET?!!

WHAT IS THE EU COMING TO? NOT RESPECTING BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS?! PAYING FOR THE GREEK SECRET SERVICE TO HARASS THE MACEDONIAN MINORITY? WHAT DO WE WANT TO ACHIEVE?

@EU Enthusiast:

You have a problem, my friend!

You actually think that the EU is all about democracy!
You're a funny man!

I wonder whether we ever read any comment by the Slavs of F.Y.R.O.M making the slighest sense. All we read up to now is the usual copy/pastes from their propaganda sites, the usual insults and threats against their own people who dare to condemn the massive propaganda enforced on them.
We still haven't read any coherent argument why should Greece give up and allow a Slavic people with Identity Crisis who identified and were identified by others as Bulgarians prior to the 20th century, to take the name of Macedonia.
F.Y.R.O.M not only is just a part of the region Macedonia but its Slavic inhabitants constitutes only one quarter of the total population in Macedonia. I still witness the same irredentist wet dreams of F.Y.R.O.M's slavs about the real Macedonia in Greece. It seems the Slavs of F.Y.R.O.M still cant get over that their Slavic ancestors had their buts kicked out away from Thessaloniki during Mid-ages by the real Macedonians. They still cant get over that they have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians who identified themselves as Greek. Greece will keep protecting her own interests as each country in this planet does. Deal with it.

I'm sure that ANYONE who reads the comments biased to the Greek side will be well aware that they're wrong.

I'm sorry - but I had nothing better to do...and I can't sleep just now...not that I care...

The fake user name "Check" talking to... HIMSELF pretty much sums up the average low level fanatism and dishonest attempt of the former yugoslav Slavs to manipulate other readers.
I have seen everything, but someone falling so incredibly low to talk to...himself pretending that he is someone else...geez. Enjoy the delutional fanatics of FYROM!!

It is a win for Greece, because.... because the court HAS NOT BARRED Greece from "vetoing" the FYROM again.

@Stathios:

OK man.
But I am a MACEDONIAN!
MY LANGUAGE IS MACEDONIAN (they teach it in universities around the world, you know).

Whatever the Hellens were, and (if you wish to pretend that they still are), should we not have the right to call ourselves what we always have called ourselves - MACEDONIAN

Why should we not call ourselves that?
You didn't have a problem with our name for over 250 years. Why now?

The people statistics from 1904 that debunkes fyroms  extrem nationalist propaganda. Note the amount of Greeks and that the people of Fyrom was alwyas registered as Bulgarians (not strange since all their ancestors from Tsar Samuil , Saint Naum ,Milidanov brothers , Delcheve etc where all proud Bulgarians)  A renamed Bulgarian is still a Bulgarian and not a "native Macedonian (which are Greeks)"
"The 1904Ottoman census of Hilmi Pasha recorded 373,227 Greeks and 204,317 Bulgarians in the vilayet of Selânik (Thessaloniki) alone. According to the same census, Greeks were also dominant in the vilayet of Monastir (Bitola), counting 261,283 Greeks and 178,412 Bulgarians."
Note the former Bulgarians from Fyrom has renamed all the ancient Macedonian cities like Pella (Alexanders capital) , Thessaloniki (named after Alexanders sister)  with Bulgarian names like Postol and Solun. 
Would Macedonians renamed their historical cities??

@Palle

Listen, let's focus on today and not centuries ago...
GREECE TODAY DOESN'T RESPECT HUMAN RIGHTS!

IF YOU THINK HISTORY ERASES WHAT HAPPENS TODAY...WELL YOU'RE WRONG!

When will Slavs get it in their block heads that they have nothing to do ancient macedonians? When will they stop denying their own identity, which is Bulgarian and move on being a slav from a crummy nation with no history? Only history you have is being kicked out of Greece and if you are up for territorial gains then your history will also include being kicked out of the Balkans. When ever you're ready Slavs!

As we can see the Skopians are still reeling with the ICJ. Unfortunately the skopians forget that our Makedones are ancient and have always been a Greek speaking tribe. These wannabees are trying to build modern day ruins in skopia just to act the part. No my skopia friends you have always been a bunch of Slavs. The mountains of makedonai have had Greek names for over 2500 years. I know that your forefathers were always honourable Bulgarians (Delchev and co.) but many among your WW11 group became traitors to the rest of the Bulgarians and accepted Tito who promised them our identity as a reward if they could win Makedonia from the Makedones. But in the end you lost both ways. First you turned yourselves into YugiSlavs and secondly Makedonia stayed with her children the Makedones. 

As an EU citizen (but not Greek) I am pressing my Parliament to veto the accession treaty with Croatia, an epilogue to of the recent crisis summit. The EU is on the point of collapse and certainly it is a joke to expand membership right now. Why is this relevant? Because the same veto should be applied to all potential members, for economic not political reasons. So the prospect of RM or fYRoM ( I take no sides in this dispute) joining the EU, even it its people want to (which is far from certain as its citizens jettison savings in EUR and go back to their own currency, or CHF or USD) is ever more remote. All cards are on the table, even perhaps to expelling some current members who do not accept their existing Treaty responsibilities, and that certainly includes Greece.
NATO is slightly different, as the country has been committed in practice to working in NATO-led operations, but it is not the end of the world if it cannot be admitted to membership because of the Greek attitude. Quite clearly the ICJ has held that Greece has broken the terms of its agreement with RM/fYRoM by objecting to its inclusion in NATO under its temporary name. If NATO fails to recognise the contribution that has been made, then maybe the country should simply withdraw that contribution. Can it afford it anyway?
In practice therefore there is no pressing need for the country to change its name. 

FYROM should never be referred as Macedonia or Republic of Macedonia or even use the Greek name Macedonia. It is historically inappropriate, incorrect and and offensive. Ancient Macedonians have alway claimed to be Greek and they even spoke Greek while FYROM a slavic race which arrived into Europe 1000 years after Alexander The Great which FYROM speak a language that is Bulgarian. About a century ago FYROM used to refer to themself as Bulgarians, and during the 1945 when Tito of Yugoslavia change Southern Serbia (Vardar Banovina)  into Macedonia they Re-Identified themself as Macedonians how ridiculous that is..... NO!! to FYROM using the Greek name of Macedonia.

- "There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA) 

- We belong to the same Slav people. Slobodan Casule, (born 1945), Foreign Minister of FYROM, to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria Solomon Pasi, in an interview to "Utrinski Vesnik" of Skopje on December 29,2001.
ΖΗΤΩ Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ!

- FYROM 1st president Mr Kiro Gligorov confirmed that they are not related to the ancient Macedonians who are Greeks: "We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century.. we are not descendants of the Ancient Macedonians who produced Greek heroes like Alexander the Great and Phillips II"(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe 26-2-1992 p35)

As a Macedonian, I find any "negotiations" with Greece to be utterly demeaning. Greece conducts itself like a peremptory master toward the Macedonians and absolutely nothing they say or do can be interpreted as being in good faith. Greece is in panic mode right now: they are down on their knees because of the euro zone debt crisis and the harsh austerity measures that are strangling the country, plus the world is slowly learning the dark and sordid truth about their brutal treatment of the Macedonians after Macedonia was divided geographically in 1913.

Greece has lost its political capital in international circles and Macedonians need to stay firm and resolute on their sacred name and identity. Just look at the British: they stand up for themselves and don't give one damn about the EU if it affects their interests. Macedonians need to take their cue from the British, who aren't fooled by anyone!

Greece could learn a lesson from Luxembourg and Belgium. This article is an interesting one to read.It is in the interest of everyone in the region to start to think more along the line of cooperation than of conflict. 
One of the surest ways of ensuring that those in the Republic of Macedonia are kept in check, is to admit them into international organisations. It will be inconceivable that as members of the EU, they will attempt to over-run territories of another member country. Within the EU and NATO, there are certain rules that members must respect. There are no-go areas. The wings of ultra-nationalists in Macedonia on both sides of the border will be clipped in Brussels.
If they misbehave and have to be thrown out of the EU, they would then be fighting the whole of the EU and not just Greece.
If you leave them out, they will package mess and send it into the EU. If you let them in, the only place they can send their packaged mess is out!
Let them in, allow them the use of their chosen name. When they are in, they will learn to live in peace and respect for others.

Re: the above comment...
None of my points were addressed by your answer!  You obviously throw a lot of mud hoping that a little will stick.. Very well known tactic, applied by those who lack arguments.
In relation to the Court's decision there is one interpretation. The Court itself stated that all the arguments of FYROM are rejected except the one for the infringement of Art. 11. This has no diplomatic consequences for Greek diplomacy and this has been affirmed by NATO! If this was not the case, FYROM would have applied directly for NATO membership.. BUT FYROM DID NOT!
By the way, let me just remind to everyone that FYROM has infringed fundamental provisions of the Interim Agreement, by adopting the Vergina flag and by declaring its expansionist ambitions! 
I understand that new states like FYROM need to find a national identity and that's why they invented the Macedonian story! The academic, scientific and cultural community and the common opinion of those who have even a basic knowledge of history can easily understand this... 
P.S. I am still waiting for some scientific or academic proof... (see my previous comment).

Again, Kirios Konstantinos, you only "see" what you want to "see". The decision is very clear and an enormous loss for Greece (the sole dissenting judge was a Greek, so the verdict was essentially unanimous). Now crybaby Greece apparently wants to get out of the Interim Accord completely; in other words, if the ICJ says that Greece was in violation of the Interim Accord, then Greece should just reject the Accord!

The next NATO summit is a long way off in May 2012, and Macedonia will most certainly be extended an invitation once this ICJ decision has sunk in; besides, Macedonia is a de facto member of NATO because it has troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan (and is the fourth largest contributor per capita, way ahead of Greece). And Europeans are sick and tired of Greece.

And speaking of not addressing points, why is the Greek media in North America NOT reporting this story to its own community? Why is it hiding this story? I guess bankrupt Greeks can't stomach any more bad news.

As a Macedonian from Aegean Macedonia in present-day Greece, the last thing I tolerate are imperious lectures from Greeks. I could list a litany of harms and crimes that have been committed against my family (and several others) by odious Greek authorites going back to 1913. Greeks always to try to distract from this dark episode of their modern episode by seizing upon this pathetic "name dispute" and arguing over Alexander the Great.

Anonymous you've been plaguing/hijacking/dominating the comment forums of about a thousand news sites; Macedonia is clearly your full-time, round-the-clock preoccupation/obsession. You're probably operating from within the Greek Parliament, or your parents' basement in a dreary American suburb.

You should know your comments are comic relief for everyone - I look forward to more!

Greece has absolutely no friends, and it picks fights with all of its geographic neighbours. Even longtime ally Serbia is distancing itself from Greece.

A Scandanavian diplomat said to me recently that Greeks actually have an inferiority complex toward Macedonians that manifests itself in exaggerated feelings of superiority. I had to think about it for a while, and concluded that he is right!

By his flawed analysis and inside his panic and bitterness, the FYROM's apologist above, exposed his own colourless role of attending in a "thousand news sites". These Slavic Drama queens seem to have plenty of free time to promoting their fabrications and misinfomation. They find it extremely hard to swallow the bitter truth. At least we hope that FYROM's gov. is generous to these propaganda promoters. They should be commended for wasting their time while they try to fool the world by claiming 1+1=5.
Their deplorable argumentative tactics of throwing around childish lines like: "A 'scandanavian' diplomat said to me recently that...", needs some adjustment as they have been rusty and raise laughing. I would urge you, in future to confine your comments to meaningful arguments and desist from such low-level empty arguments. Considering where you come from, your tactics apply exactly as you described it... a comic relief to all other readers. Keep it up. You are downright hilarious like the rest of the FYROM's apologists. You are the kings of comedy!!

I was born in Aegean Macedonia (Greece). I got married in Canada to a Canadian born girl from Macedonian parents.  We landed at the airport in Salonica, Greece. We showed our passports at the customs and the customs officer said to me why is your last name not Greek?I said the Greek government changed my last name without my consent. When I went to Canada I became a Canadian citizen and I restored my original Macedonian last name. Then he started to talk to my wife in Greek and my wife said to the customs officer that she does not know how to speak Greek. The officer said it is impossible for a person born in Canada not to speak Greek, my wife said to him Canada is not Greece. And in Canada the official languages are not Greek but French and English. This is quite surprising that Greece has a mentality that is still in the 17th century. I wonder how Greece ever was allowed to enter the European Union. Especially since the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia (Greece) do not have any human rights.

Turkogrekos and FTCOG instead of writing home made empty stories maybe you can explain  what your proud ancestor meant with these words(facts)?
'We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves."
Krste Misirkov, "On Macedonian Matters", Macedonian Review Editions  1903

Zakinthos, Kassos, Thassos, Halicarnassos, Korinthos, Hyacinthos, Labryinthos, Athens, Parnassos, Assos, Agiassos, Lemnos, Thessaly. Are not of Greek origin. Some of them are of Phoenician and Illyrian origin .
 

Oh Johan,
 
You say Misirkov's quote, "we are more Bulgarian than the Bulgarians themselves", is testament to our Bulgarian identity.
 
I know this will be hard for you to understand, but just consider the following;
 
Greek interpretation;
"WE (meaning Bulgarians) are more Bulgarian than the Bulgarians themselves."
 
Macedonian interpretation;
"We (meaning Macedonians) are more Bulgarian than the Bulgarians themselves."
 
Your interpretation does not make sense. It would be like you saying "we Greeks are more Greek than the Greeks themselves." It doesn't make sense, unless you are a moron offcourse.

In the end History will repeat itself and it's happening right now. Greek History belongs to the Ancient Greeks, todays Greeks have nothing to do with the Ancient Greeks. Same can be said about the Macedonians, Ancient Macedonians have nothing to do with todays Macedonians.
But if you follow todays laws, the Macedonians have every right to call them selfs Macedonians, if Greece have a problem, well thats there problem, they should've called themselfs Macedonians instead of Greeks if they so much like the name Macedonia.
To me its common sence, how can Greece control Macedonia in the Ancent times when Macedonia was the one that conquered the lands with the Macedonian Name, not Greek. But Greeks always lie, just look at the mess that they have made out of the EU, lieing about their finances, that can only tell you one other thing as well, they are lieing about their History, and the saddest part of all of this is that the EU tax payers are suffering cos of a lie, and the Macedonians have suffered centuries cos of a Greek lie.
In 20 years there will be no Greece, like Yugoslavia, fake country made up of other nations, Greece is the same.

You couldn't get a starker demonstration of the intensive brainwashing imposed on these poor people in FYROM than reading the inanities of "MiddleMan". In a country like FYROM where Lying is a national trait, you couldnt expect anything better. Like the rest of his compatriots here, his argumentation skills range between childish to downright silly.
 
 I read comical arguments like, "if Greece have a problem (...) they should've called themselfs Macedonians instead of Greeks if they so much like the name Macedonia."
Its as preposterous as in a hypothetical scenario where a part of Bavaria decides to get independent from Germany and form a country under the name, "Republic of Bavaria", to claim to the rest of Bavarians, "you cant call yourselves Bavarians because you are Germans!!"
Then "MiddleMan" decides to entertain the readership with more nonsense. He claims, "To me its common sence, how can Greece control Macedonia in the Ancent times when Macedonia was the one that conquered the lands with the Macedonian Name, not Greek."
 
How can one stop laughing with such an intringuingly fatuous argument! Its like claiming that just because Athens had conquered at some certain period most of the lands in Greece, forcing the Spartan Brasidas to call the Atheneans "Masters of Greece", they couldnt be Greeks or part of Greece!!! These people are simply totally unable to write anything to make sense. For the frustration of "MiddleMan" and his friends, the ancient geographer Strabo had an entirely differnt opinion, "Macedonia, of course, is a Part of Greece".
 
Had "MiddleMan: the slighest clue about what he is talking about, he would have thought himself why an ancient people like ancient Macedonians spread everywhere they passed the Greek language and culture, if it wasnt theirs. We know however that any attempt by FYROM's slavs to think rationally in a duration more than 10 secs could make them faint from exhaustion.
 
In a country where common sense is completely unknown, FYROM's bogus-historical dogmais in terms of historical and ideological analysis far more dangerous thanHitler's national socialist ideology described in his Mein Kampf. FYROM's Slavs being unable to face the unconfortable truth for them, choose to simply deny it!!
 

How are these obviously distorted facts above connected to the previous points and questions we raised? Once again you have proved my point that you are lacking arguments that's why you are attacking Greece. I completely understand you.

Greece is a full and equal member of the EU and NATO and our international partners have stated that FYROM will only join them if the name issue is resolved. Otherwise, FYROM will remain isolated.

In relation to the distorted facts, Greece is one of the countries which have been affected by the international crisis. This does not mean that other countries have the right to take parts of our history in their seek for national identity.

Thank you,
Konstantinos. 

IDENTITY THEFT IS ILLEGAL.  The government and nationalist in VARDARSKA/FYROM are suffering from an Identity crisis, therefore they picked the one thing of value they could find.
 How come non of you speak the Language of the Macedonians.  
Go to the tomb of Phillip, which is in Macedonia GREECE.  It's all written in GREEK !!!   
I have met many Macedonians here in the United States  and they all state emphatically that they consider themselves GREEK. 

Greeks are really all Albanians: united Albania = Albania + Greece :D

@ goorooni slayer,

Words are cheap (especially your worthless Greek dribble), it's what is in our blood that cannot be disputed.
You recommend that we start packing and go back to some other continent as we don't belong in Europe.
Well buddy, have a read of the following, it is all based on your beloved EU's stats, no Tito/Stalinist propaganda at all.
 
Read and weep you camel humping, mono browed gyp;
 
J haplogroup is found at highest frequencies in Middle Eastern and North African populations where it most likely evolved.
Percentage of population carrying J haplogroup;
Greece 26%
Macedonia 12%
 
 
I is a European haplogroup, representing nearly one-fifth of the population. It is almost non-existent outside of Europe, suggesting that it arose in Europe.
Percentage of population carrying I haplogroup;
Greece 12.5%
Macedonia 28%
 
Now, who are the European therefore Macedonian?

Adelina Marini, you would be right in any other case, not when you have to do with the Skopian cheaty, tricky, pseudomacedonians. What you see as a polite dialogue it ois just a fraud: for example under the name Konstantinos, who pretends to be a Greek a Gruefsky's fascist agent is hidden. No Greek could ever betray Macedonia to the Skopjan Bulgarians, and every Greek woulf knew that the word for thanks is Efharisto, not AFHARISTO...

Why is the Former Ottoman Republic of Greece (FOROG) stealing the identity and historical heritage of the ancient Greeks? IDENTITY THEFT IS ILLEGAL.

People from FOROG have a confused, manufactured identity. They are really disoriented, suppressed Albanians, with a genetic link to peoples from the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia, Somalia and Eritrea). Several prime ministers in FOROG's modern history have been exposed to be Albanians and not "Greeks".

Why are people from FOROG so ashamed of their Albanian ethnic heritage? Why must they usurp and adopt as their own the legacy of the proud, ancient Greeks (who were actually a Nordic-type race who produced real athletes).

FOROG: phony country, phony people.

fyrom can win only a reward for comedy show. The library in university of Cambridge saying that fyromians are liars and thieves. The library in Harvard University saying that fyromians are liars and thieves. The library in Vatican saying that fyromians are liars and thieves. And every normal historian in the real world know this. It is madness to believe that FYROM have a qualities to be part of EU and NATO

The FOROGians are deeply-repressed Albanians for the following reason: the Albanians are 90% Muslim and so the FOROGians want to distance themselves from them and not be linked to Islam. So they've had to search for a phony identity and latched on to the ancient Greek heritage (who are extinct and so they have no living descendents to fight for them and protect their rightful heritage). It's too bad, because they most surely would demand that "Greece" change its name to Republic of Southern Albania.

However, the FOROGians are more than happy to welcome their Albanian brothers and cousins into FOROG to work on FOROGian construction and road projects. Meanwhile, millions of FOROGian households quietly speak Albanian at home (one only has to visit the FOROGian province of Epirus to witness this).

Even FOROG's "national heroes" from the 1821 FOROG war of Independence were actually Albanian.

And now, more recently, the FOROGians are stealing the revered Macedonian Saints Cyril and Methody and claiming them as their own!

Its really sad when the Greeks try to tell you how Macedonia was Greek 2300 years ago, to the Greeks it seems like it happened yesterday, thats how crearly they can tell you their own History, and the saddest part is when they tell you that the Macedonians spread the Greek language.
But little that they know that even their mordern Greek language is so different to the ancient Greek language, but yet their quick to say that their language is ancient language, but i guess you cannot tell the Greeks different cos they are so brainwashed that it cannot be repaired.
Greece has land issues with Turkey, Macedonia, Bulgaria and Albania, every country that surrounds Greece has an issue with them, but Greeks being Greeks they like picking on the small nations like Macedonia.
Wake up Greeks, dont dwel on the past, stop dreaming of Zuez or Cyclops, we are in the 21st century, time to move on and practice your human rights skills or sooner or later you will find yourselfs outside of EU.

"MiddleMan", our main source of entertainment claimed in his new round of Gibberish:
"Its really sad when the Greeks try to tell you how Macedonia was Greek 2300 years ago"
In reality my brainwashed, former Bulgarian and currently FYROMian, its the ancient Macedonians themselves who were admiting it 2300 years ago. 
 So when Philip V, the king of Macedonia wrote in the treaty with Hannibal the following you can realize how much Clueless and silly you sound when you attempt piteously to write about anything related with history.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234%3Abook%3D7%3Achapter%3D9
"..of all the gods who rule Carthage: of all the gods who rule Macedonia and the REST OF GREECE."
then "Middle Man" our constant source of gibberish claims ridiculusly:
"the saddest part is when they tell you that the Macedonians spread the Greek language."
the saddest part with the brainwashed former Bulgarians and currently FYROMians, is that the majority of modern historians admit that Macedonians spread the Greek language. You cant really stop humiliating yourself, dont you? :))
To top off his natural born ability to embarass himself,  "Middle Man" the former bulgarian in self-denial, claims:
"little that they know that even their mordern Greek language is so different to the ancient Greek language"
In his confused brainwashed mind, our main jester couldnt realize that they are so "different" that any Greek can read ancient Greek.
 Could we even dare to claim that the mixed Easter Bulgarian dialect of modern FYROMians (Eastern Bulgarians in self-denial) bears any connection to the language used by ancient Macedonians??? Absolutely NOT!!
Lets have a test now to prove the latter. Can anyone of our former Bulgarian aka FYROMian friends here (including the "Slavized" Turk with the infinite Inferiority complex above) translate what this ancient Macedonian is writing in the inscription and how he identifies himself and the rest of ancient Macedonians?
http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/main?url=oi%3Fikey%3D214130%26...
Come on FYROMians , dont be shy. Translate for us what this ancient Macedonian writes. You dont want people to think that you cant even understand a single word from your imaginary "ancestors" and be once more the Laughing Stock of the world, dont you?

middle man it's clear that anonymous is twisting himself into a tortured pretzel to disguise his Albanian-Illyrian roots and heritage. He belongs to an army of FOROGians whose full-time job is to monitor news stories online concerning Macedonia then dominate the comments section with their recycled garbage, lies and propaganda. Perhaps if they focussed on saving FOROG from looming economic catastrophe and social breakdown their time might be better spent.

Look at how the FOROGians are now stealing Sts. Cyril and Methody, and renaming them "Kirillios" and "Metodios"...have you ever seen anything more obscene and preposterous?

FOROG: phone country, phony people.

Anonymous this is ultimately a lost issue for the Greeks. This is the 21st century now and the international community isn't paying attention to Greece's antediluvian ideas and positions on Macedonia. The Greek defense in the recent ICJ case also revolved around Greek historical interpretations of Macedonia and the court rejected them as irrelevant to the case. The international community is moving on from this intractable debate and so should Greece. It has far more serious matters weighing on its shoulders right now.

continue from above ^^^^^
It's clear that not all historians share the Greek view, and these Historians never took bribes from the Greek Government to have their views changed, like ive said in my last posts, its time for the Greeks to wake up from their mythology era and move forwards to the future.
The current Macedonians live in the geographical Macedonia and they have every right to call them selfs Macedonians.
But Greece claims Macedonia as their's, Bulgaria claims Macedonia as theirs, but its time to stop all the lie's from Greece and Bulgaria and need to respect the Macedonians as people not FYROMians.
But we all know what happened in the Balkan Wars when Greece and Bulgaria went to war for Macedonia and till this day both Greece and Bulgaria have not grown up. Why doesn't Greece ask Bulgaria to change their provence in Bulgaria that is also called Macedonia?
Like i said in my last posts Greece likes to pick on the little nations and show off in front of the World but the ICJ changed everything for Greece cos Greece look like the fools of the world. Full of lies and with proof, just look at the fianancal crisis Greece is in, stealing from the EU, and stealing History from other nations.

anonymous: Your full of it, so much lie's that its not funny, try reading Eugene Borza's book "In the Shadow of Olympus" before you copy and paste propaganda stuff from Greek site's.
Your Greek History is so mixed up in lie's that no Historian or Archaeologist is allowed to dig for evidence in Greece unless they are Greek.
Futher more, even your religion is mixed up, Greece is the only Orthodox nation that celibrates Chrismas by new calender and Easter by the old calender, no other Orthodox nation has this, but the Greeks want to be Christans and at the same time Orthodox.
Like the present issues, Greece want everything to themselfs including History from other nations, Religions from other nations, Funds from other nations and the only thing they have is a weak link to the Ancient Greeks. The Mordern Greeks are the same people that you will find all over the Balkans but if you say that to a Greek he will tell you how they are 97% pure Greek.
And most Greeks will tell you how Macedonia was Greek 2300 years ago, GET OVER IT, you Greeks have no proof that Macedonia is Greek, if you did we would'nt be discussing it now on these blogs, it as simple as that.
And for some reason you keep bringing up the Illyrians, Thracians, Dardanians, Paeonians when are you Mordern Greeks going to get over it, these race's dont exist anymore like the Ancient Greek and the Ancient Macedonians. We are in the 21st century not 300BC, the quicker you Greeks get over your ego's the better the Balkans will be for everyone including Greece.

Anonymous and middle man you need to call a truce on this and drop it.

The original article dealt with the recent ICJ decision (so let's get back to the story). The court case was not about who has rightful claim to the Macedonian legacy.

What matters is how the international community perceives the issue today. Anonymous, the name "Macedonia" today applies to the country Republic of Macedonia and its people. It is a country that is officially recognized by over 130 countries, including the leading powers of the United States, Russia and China. Obviously these 130+ countries have reached a final conclusion on this matter.

The Greek defense argued in the ICJ case that Macedonia was stealing names and symbols belonging to the ancient Macedonians (whom Greece claims as Hellenic), and that this was in violation of the 1995 Interim Accord. The court rejected this argument, and said that the Republic of Macedonia could use such names and symbols as it pleased within its sovereign borders.

When two parties are deadlocked in disagreement, third parties have to end up taking a side (e.g. the 130+ countries referred to earlier). Anonymous it is perfectly understandable that you want to defend Greece but this entire issue is increasingly a lost matter for Greece.

I think you should both read an excellent article called "A 'common destiny' for Greece and Macedonia" by Gunther Dauwen on the website publicserviceeurope.com (it was released on June 24). It argues that the two countries should let go of the past.

My fellow Macedonians, this is all noise in the overall scheme of things, let the history run it's course. The genie is out of the bottle and the wheel of history is turning again. Remember the old saying - Macedonians are like the weed, it can never be erradicated. And the proof is in the pudding my friends. Our time is coming again.

"Middle Man", you are the textbook definition of a bird-brain. As always not a single line of your gibberish makes sense. Lets see...
You claim: "i asked you to read Eugene Borza's book "In the Shadow of Olympus" and you had no response to it"
Possible Replies, (a) Yes, i have read it or (b) No, i havent read it.
Does either of these replies has got any impact on the FACT that your favourite historian clearly says that you and your people have ABSOLUTELY NO LINK with ancient Macedonians?
Furthermore, since (a) you are constantly caught LYING and (b) you have no clue that Hammond and Wilcken you were Parroting are the greatest supporters of the Greekness of ancient Macedonians, why dont YOU share with us what Borza claims and how this help you?
In the meantime, you still humiliate yourself by NOT answering my simple question.
Its you who ridiculously claimed, "Ancient Greek historians supported that ancient Macedonians were "Barberians" (LOL)"
I repeat for the last time for you, my costantly Humiliated joker, "Middle Man".
Which is the Greek and which is the Roman from Plutarch's pair "Alexander the Great Vs Julius Ceasar", if Plutarch's work is called "Lives of the Noble GREEKS and Romans"??? Either you are a Liar or a complete Idiot. I give you a last chance at least to prove the latter isnt so!!!

A Clinical Study Of our Lying Machine “MiddleMan”,
I first began studying this individual in order todetermine whether all this gibberish he is spouting from his first post is essenciallya product of his own “thinking” or he just parrots popular inanities found inFYROM. It was conclusively demonstrated that “Middle Man” was left mentallyexhausted with any complexed question and that for him to try and hold a thought of even 3-4 seconds duration could be life threatening.
 Therefore wecan safely conclude he is just Parroting crap without having the slightest cluewhat he is talking about. My interest stemmed from the intellectual inconsistencyof his posted responses which ranged from being seemingly childish  to the otherwise disconnected ramblings of acomplete fool. A scientific analysis of his replies produced a personal profiledemonstrating he had a Pathological syndrome of Lying, over and over,accompanied by a complete Lack of any Common Sense. This was demonstrated bythe subject's inability to back up any of his Lies, to respond to any of hisrefuted gibberish, without jumping to another issue where sooner or later ithad the same result.
After for umpteenth time he was caught Lying and swallowedmy last simple question, this produced the dichotomy of how to explain how suchan obviously limited and impaired intelligence, could on occasion fool the restof us by appearing to be of normal intellect and waste our time!!
“Middle-Man” incarnates an embarrassing testament to the FYROMiancollective Irrationality. Persons  devoidof any kind of logic, physically unable  to distinguish an assertion from an argument,a claim from proof, and learn to identify logical fallacies in their own assertions.Their sole aim is parroting outrightfalsehoods without the slightest evidence. Of course if one questions thegibberish they are spreading, this causes to them a severe brain malfunction,therefore they have to change subject at once and start threir crap from theright beginning. The public Humiliation of this lying machine “Middle and hischaracteristical inability to write a single (1) line making sense, is there forany reader to have his own conclusions with what kind of liars were aredealing with!!
 

Anonymous if you want to do some research then google "Macedonia naming dispute" to see list of 132 countries that recognize Macedonia.

As for NATO and EU, well, the world knows how much credibility NATO and EU have right now. They are actually backpedalling after the ICJ decision has been publicized throughout the international media and experts have been weighing in on the matter. Just google "NATO duplicity". And everyone knows the EU is falling apart, just google "The end of the EU: a bang or a wimper?" by Justin Stares (also on publicserviceeurope.com); by the way, Greece is mentioned in the piece.

anonymous: Here are some copy and paste tricks that ive learned from you on Greek lies, not just the 60's 70's as well 80's 90's and in the 21st century, and pls feel free to google it yourself, im sure you know: ......................... ................................................................................................................................................
"Greece lied to get into the European Union (EU)," said Money Morning's Shah Gilani, a former hedge-fund manager who's an expert at "reading" global-capital-movement trends. "After they were in, they used world markets to borrow from investors who bought their bonds, knowing that the EU/IMF would bail them out when it came time to repay. It was a calculated gamble to keep stuffing themselves and raising their GDP/per capita productivity to levels equal to Germany and France. (Greece) doesn't have the productive means to grow to anywhere near the per capita income of the French or Germans. It has olive oil and tourism, what else?"

Under an agreement called the Maastricht Treaty, to adopt the euro as their currency countries had to cap annual budget deficits at 3% of gross domestic product (GDP), and total government debt had to remain at or below 60% of GDP. To appear compliant, Greece failed to book billions of dollars of military expenses, and Goldman Sachs arranged a currency-swap deal in 2001 that effectively cut the country's deficit.

After Eurozone acceptance, Greece violated the terms of the Maastricht Treaty from 2001 to 2006, running excessive budget deficits in each of those years. ...............................................................................................................................................
So anonymous you can try all you want to expose my opinions on this blog but the World know who the real lier's are and that's the Greeks, and there are many other examples.
Not only the Greeks are lier's they also brake treaties between Organizations such as EU and NATO but also with other countries, so much for good neighbour relations.
Thank you very much ICJ for your great work in exposing the Greeks as lier's once again.
 

@ anonymous
 
Like I said talk is cheap, words written or spoken can be manipulated, twisted, selectively used they can be made to suit ones argument and even more so when it comes to historical records. There is no black and white in our understanding of history, history as we know it is changing by the minute, once the earth was flat, once Columbus discovered the Americas and once the Brits were cave dwellers before the Romans conquered and so on.
 
Case in point, some historian's say that the Macedonians competed in the Olympics therefore they were Greek. Other historians say that one Macedonian king used his power and influence to force himself into the Olympics, where he was considered non Greek by Greek competitors. We can go on for ever with claim and counter claim.
 
What cannot be disputed is ones blood, this cannot be tailor made to suit ones biased arguments, it is a constant, it was in our ancestors, in us and in our children and their children for ever. The following are the EU's own Y-DNA Halpogroup distributions in Europe, they can be found at Eupedia European Y-DNA Halpogroup website.
 
J haplogroup is found at highest frequencies in Middle Eastern and North African populations where it most likely evolved.
Percentage of population carrying J haplogroup;
Greece    26%
Macedonia 12%
 
I is a European haplogroup, representing nearly one-fifth of the population. It is almost non-existent outside of Europe, suggesting that it arose in Europe.
Percentage of population carrying I haplogroup;
Greece 12.5%
Macedonia 28%
 
R1a halpogroup is currently found in central and western Asia, India and in Slavic populations of Eastern Europe.
Percentage of population carrying R1a halpogroup;
Greece 11.5%
Macedonia 13.5
 
So, what does all this mean?
 "J" means that more than 1 in 4 Greeks have Middle Eastern/North African descent, nothing to do with the Classical Greeks and certainly nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonians.
"I" means that 1 in 3 Macedonians are of European stock, whereas in Greece it's just over 1 in 10, so any mortgage you think you had on Western/European Culture, think again.
"R1a" means that Greece is nearly as Slavic as us.

 
So funny, "GREECE NEARLY AS SLAVIC AS MACEDONIA". Kind of blows away your argument about us not being Macedonians because of our Slavic roots, ha?
 
Long live Macedonia.

Levskar your another moron Greek/Turkish/Gypsy calling the Macedonians as Fyromians

1. Sorry but I am bulgarian and I don't care about greeks.
2. You are fyromians

Levskar you are a complete phony and really a Greek. Thanks for my laugh of the day.

1. I don't know speak english very well and its obviously :D
2. Sorry but my "sorry" was for you and we write with capital letter only the name of country
3. bulgarians in fyrom know that bulgarian history is real and it is made by bulgarians (they are not fyromians) . But there is fyromians and they stealing bulgarian and greek history and trying to build a new fake story for FYROM and it is madness to believe that someone will be respectful to you. Sorry guys, but stealing of history is bad think

You gotta be kidding me :D the walls have higher level of intelect from fyromians. I am trying to tell you that:
1. Greek history is greek and the ancient macedonians and alexander the great are greeks.
2. Bulgarian history is bulgarian and the people who lived in vardarian macedonia for last 1300 years are bulgarians and they are not ancient macedonians becouse the ancient macedonians are greeks
3.  fyromians steal ancient greek history of alexander the great before B.C. and bulgarian history from last 1300 years and try to create a new fake fyromian history for fyromians. I am hoping that now you can understand me

middle man, "levskar" is a Greek - don't be fooled. He's posing as a Bulgarian to make it appear that the Greeks have other allies on the issue, and to parrot the Greek position that Macedonians are Bulgarians. And what a phony, contrived appellation "levskar" is...how Bulgarian is that?

Real Bulgarians don't care at all about the "name dispute".

:D :D :D В момента е разгара на празниците и затова ще ви пусна няколко дни аванта, защото не е християнско да мъчиш дори и фюромците, въпреки че сте превърнали оскверняването на църкви в част от националната си политика в процеса на изграждане на фюромска нация. Желая ви приятно изкарване на празниците (въпреки, че ги празнувате малко по-късно) и догодина пак ще си попишем :)))

I am amazed about how brainwashed are the citizens of FYROM! Political propaganda made its miracle. They wanted to create a new state, and new states need an identity, so they stole one from their neighbours. They educated their population with the false story and that's it. Please READ A HISTORY BOOK! It's better to know the truth even if it hurts.

Aren't there enough problems in the world without us perpetuating this nationalistic crap. Greek or Slav, Mecadonia or Yugoslvia, who cares? We are all part of a larger, greater family... the human one! Instead of uniting and fighting the real problems in the world (like hate, homelessness, starvation, and wars), you are fighting each other over who owns what name, and who owns what land...

Listen carefully my brothers and sisters. NO ONE owns this planet. You were born to it, you live on it, and you will DIE on it one day, and that day will come soon enough for everyone, so why fight? Love each other and stop the none sense.

middle man , the walls have higher level of intelect from fyromians.

1. Vasil LEVSKI is bulgarian Apostle of Freedom
2. PFC LEVSKI Sofia 1914 is the most popular football team in Bulgaria and I am fan of them
3. I call fyromians only the idiots who are stolen greek and bulgarian history. They are not bulgarians becouse they say that they are not bulgarians. I accept this but I want you to stop stealing of bulgarian history. You can steal greek history but dont touch bulgarian history becouse it will be a problem for you
4.

@Levska go back to school and learn your history, actually i say something that the Greeks always say: The Slavs came to geographical Macedonia in the 6th century, meaning you Bulgarians so stop saying bulgarian history, you haven't originated from the area, its Greek and it will always be Greek.
 
 
NOT

Levskar thanks for being the clown of this forum.

Happy New Year to All.

@Levskar: We all have a build in sence in our brains to use common sence, all great empires only have and are known by one name: Ancient Egyptians, Romans, Ancient Persians, and so on. So when Romans were powerful and conqured, where the Romans controled by another nation or tribe while the Romans conquered? NO
So what makes you think that when Ancient Macedonia conquered parts of the world with a such a powerful armies, it's was controled by Ancient Greece, the Greeks clasified the Macedonians as barberians and in Ancient Greek times the Greeks used to call everyone that wasent Greek a barberian. Also Both Alexander II and Alexander the Great entered Athens as conqurers not liberators.
Alexander II was also used as a meditator between the Ancient Greeks and the Ancient Persians, cos the Persian King at the time requested a non Greek as a meditator.
^^^^^^ând this is a fact if you know anything about the Ancient Persians history.
 
So Levskar before you make claims that the Ancient Macedonians were Ancient Greeks, read up on history or go back to school and stop headbutting that wall you keep on mentioning.

@Levskar:
1. Your a fool who claims to be Bulgarian but yet knows a lot of Greek propagada history
2. Rome also conquered Greece and other lands at that time, like Romania, hence: the name ROMANia.
3. You are not a smart person cos your a moron that makes claims but has no proof of backing up your claims.
4. Stop wasting my time.

Levskar i never did say that todays Romanians are Italian i just used it as a example of the Roman empire conquring land cos you told in your pervious post that the Romans only conquered Italian Peninsula.
So go back to those library's and do some studing, you need it big time.

@ Levskar: Let me get this straight here, so your saying that the ancient Greeks and Macedonians conquered the lands in ancient times including current Bulgarian land as whole, if thats the case than Bulgarians are Greek as well cos ancient Greeks conqured that land.
But i dont think you know what your talking about, what your saying it sound Greek to me ;-)

05 October, 1958 Episcope Dositheus was enthroned the 83rd Archbishop of the Ohrid Archdiocese. The 83rd Archbishop of the Macedonian Orthodox Church. That’s is a lot of Archbishop’s for a country and nation that has existed for only 20 odd years. Macedonia has
more than an ancient history.

you must be drinking from a bottle of ouzo and writing blogs, you don't know your own history, why would you bother to comment on the history of macedonia. we have lived in macedonia for at least the last 1600 years, it is better that you return to your cafe and greek prostitutes than make incoherent comments here.

in 1767 the sultan mustapha iii disbanded the archbishop of ohrid archdiocese and attached it to constantinople. the word bulgar means turkic, the bulgarian national flag is almost identical to the ta rtarstan national flag. the colours of the bulgarian national flag are similar to the colours of the flags of other turkic nations. no matter how much you wish to be macedonian, it is not possible for you, it is better you accept that you are a pickpocket and shoplifting bulgarian and nothing more.  

*I forgot the most important fact and it is:

2. fyromians live in Macedonian peninsula from 600 000 years when God MACEDON create fyromians

1. The word "fyromian" means idiot
2. Fyromian flag is identical with War flag of the Imperial Japanese Army in WWII
3. Compare the fyromian flag with the sign of Radiation, the two signs are absolutely identical, the sign of radiation can be also called fyrom, compare the colours of fyromian flag with the colour of other radiation signs, you will see that you adopt absolutely the same colouring.
4. I can understand that fyromians are idiots
5. Fyromians live in Macedonian peninsula from 600 000 years when God Macedon (the real and the full name of God) create fyromians

Alexander The Great III
Please change your pills or change your drug dealer.

*
6. Sorry but fyrom will never be part of EU or NATO like Bulgaria, Greece, Albania and Croatia

Sorry, but my education is not fyromians. And I know that:
Current members of United nation are Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, FYROM..... but.... why FYROM???? Becouse officially you are fyrom. And now, why don't you get an intermediate education and stop embarrasing yourself.

it is unfortunate that your education is not fyromian.... discovered basics ethiks.....ahahahh
-------------------------------------------------
In this case I will discover only the unlimited horizons of schizophrenia and self-deception :D. No thanks. I choose to be a normal. And wait first UN to recognize you with something different from fyrom and then you can say what is your name. But in this moment you are fyrom and this is not education... it is the reality

ze mighty tatar- bulgar - why you steal my nick name?
Or macedonian tradition claims to stole everything that you like?
Just like you fy-ROM-ians stole parts from greek and bulgarian history ?
Now you can try to stole ROM-anian imeprium history because your country name contains "ROM"
or you are just roma people in your minds ?

macedonia has an aquaduct constructed during the roman empire, should it consult with italy about its constitutional name?archaeological finds are being made on macedonian current territories, these finds are the treasures of r. macedonia, no country would give these finds to another country.macedonia was partitioned according to the treaty of bucharest 1913, whoever is interested could consult wikipedia initially to look at the impact of the treaty. the balkan and macedonia/ thrace were occupied by slavs in the 6th century, this fact apparently can be substantiated from byzantine records.why not leave this beautiful historic name alone, it has been retained for the previous 1600 years, it is a beautiful marker for children reading history to be fascinated and research into the past including alexander the great.  

the roman empire considered macedonia to extend the entire balkan from hungaria (magyarska) to greece, macedonia in such form is engraved on the wall of the coloseum, grcija (greece) is shown as a thumbnail on the coast of the balkan. why do the people in macedonia today have to account to the title of the region at the time of alexander the great and earlier, why isn't it appropriate to recognise macedonian from the time of the byzantine empire and onward. its not relevant who occupied macedonia at the time of alexander, lets consider who occupied macedonia in the preceeding 1600 years. it is lost to me, the turkish govt. occupied these lands for 500 years, they have no hesitation in recognising macedonia and the current inhabitants. there are turkish records archived from this time. what is wrong with my argument in favour of the r. macedonia, its beyond me.   

the republic of macedonia was already recognised when the united nations organisation was formed, the socialist federation of jugoslavia was in fact a founding member of the united nations, you are too stupid to contribute to this or any other forum.

the UN recognised Socialist Federation(SF) Jugoslavia and its constituents Socialist Republic(SR) Serbia, SR Croatia, SR Slovenia, SR Bosnia- Hercegovina, SR Montenegro and SR Macedonia. at least 131+ member states of the UN recognise macedonia by its constitutional name r. macedonia, you would be blind not to realise that r. macedonia will soon be permanent. the UN recognised Croatia, Slovenia, Serbia, Bosnia- Hercegovina, Montenegro and Macedonia. genocide and attrocities committed by the greeks after the partition of macedonia according to the treaty of bucharest 1913, both in macedonia and thrace are well documented historic facts.  

UN is not important, 131+ countries refer to macedonia, republic of macedonia.don't worry, you will soon be peddling your worthless drachmas, greece can say farewell to the EU.the germans are tired of your continual fraud and theft of european funds.remember 'helles born 1830 and died 2011.

I hope the Albanians wipe out these Makedonski or whatever the hell they want to call themsleves.
I want to know something what langauge did Alexander the Great spoke? It wasnt Macedonian.
Because Macedonia is part of Greece. So you FYROM's why dont you moron's call your selve's Makedonski's. Look at your surnames. alway end with ski

ahahahahhh... fyromian intellect in action - UN is not important ahahahahahahh. Then why on your table in UN is written FYROM? Why on your paper in lottery for World cup and European Football Championship is written FYROM? aahahahaahahhh...The reality is not important - fyromian schizophrenia is the top!!! And you can stop be worried because in Bulgaria we use lev, not drahma.

Your official name is FYROM and you will be fyrom to the end of time, because you are fyromians

the morons from bulgaria and greece idiotically assume that their voices are the only voices that are heard. but, republic of macedonia has support from the other republics of jugoslavia. 20 to 30 years ago jugoslavia had a population of about 28 million people, the combined population of bulgaria and greece today is only 18 million. you people are a despical joke!

Fyromians idiots. You are illiterate fyromian imbecile. Your official name is fyrom, go to UN website and you will see that there have a member state called FYROM. I can not find member state with name republic macedonia. You can write on your constitution document that your name is The Republic of God Macedon becouse we live in free world, but officialy you will be just FYROM. And for most citizens of Yugoslavia your name is South Banovina and for most of them fyromians are serbs with speech defect. You people are a despical joke

fyromians schizophrenics

Yes:
1. Fyromian history is gypsy
2. Fyromians are heirs of faggot - Alexander The Great
3. Only completely imbecile man can be fyromian

There is not exist ottoman arhives with fyromian records, because you were created in 1944 from communists. Only a idiot can believe that ottoman empire had a documents for the future. Your grandfather can be only a great schismatic because the fyromian church in fyrom is false. I prefer to reading the books of all big untversity centers, not youtube. And you can be fyromian but you must stop stealing bulgarian history.

aaahhahhahahaahhaahahahahahahh.... Yes, we know that the real name of God is "God Macedon" and he speaking every day with fyromians from your national tv program... aahahahahahahahahahahahhh... fyromian schizophrenics :D :D :D

aahahahaahahaahahahhh... fyromian  schizophrenia genius watching this

watch what! two bulgarian alcoholics on bulgarian television, sorry they're not alcoholics, what are they intellectuals from your institute of sciences.
your a little bit too common to be dealing with me, but enjoy your proletarian bulgarian television, it is obviously the only thing educating you!  

what don't you understand, i have already told you that your presentation is of two good for nothing bums on bulgarian television. the presentation was from an independent producer, they are free to make any production they like. you have no obligation to accept what is said.there is no reference to a god macedon, there was only a reference to the region macedon.

fyromian national tv is not a independet because it reflects national politic doctrine of fyrom

the production is not national politic doctrine of macedonia. orthodox christianity in the macedonian church does not identify macedonian people to be any better or different to other people. this is an independently produced sketch.
the sketch is rubbish! the presenters on your television are rubbish! 

why don't you contact your two idiots, download the youtube site, the three of you can make a segment on bulgarian television. the comment says that in grncarica, an archaeological site has revealed human skeleton from the neolithic period. nothing more!
 

the only funny story is your schizophrenia, only a bulgarian would adopt more than one personality while commenting on the net, further your instability shows itself in your inability to accept reason. it is unlikely that God would need to appear on macedonian television, we try to tell you it is a sketch provided by an independent producer, yet you continue to tell me that it is propaganda. we tell you that we are macedonians, that the state is now called republic of macedonia, that it is recognised by 137+ nations. you are to stupid to take this on board, you continue to refer to macedonia as fyrom, yet bulgaria was one of the first countries to recognise our state and refer to us by our constitutional name republic of macedonia (macedonia).the only bullshit is people like you, the people that interest you, like your two teelvision presenters. people like this are a moronic waste of space, make sure you take your prescriptions, I fear that you could become more wackier in future, if that is at all possible!  

call the nurse and get your medication, quickly!there is no pact between bulgaria, serbia, albania and greece; there is no vardar land, vardar is the name of a larger river; the official name of the country is its constitutional name the republic of macedonia (macedonia) which is recognised 137+ nations from 190+ nations in the UN.we are macedonian because antic macedonian blood courses through our veins, the ancient macedonians were macedonian. no greece existed till 1930 when it was created by the london protocol, a german prince was then nominated to be its king!there are no makenoids in macedonia, there are however macedonian orthodox christians, this is the official line of the country.you talk absolute nonsense!  

Most people around the world believe that Alexander the Great is Greek and there is proof from ancient times. there is no proof that he was a slav like the man that was ruling at a time said!

i'm finished- up with you guys, ok! you guys win! goodbye! 

that is bullshit! unfortunately it is not possible to discuss these types of issues with you, you haven't attended a university and you wouldn't know what you are talking about. it is not possible to talk with reason, when discussing matters with you. you live in a parallel universe. you will see that macedonia will be called the republic of macedonia in the near future, historic facts will dissolve the greek resistance. prior to 20 odd year ago, it was punishable to refer to the name macedonia in greece, this is a fact that greece is not able to contend with. you are nothing to macedonia.     

"you will see that macedonia will be called the republic of macedonia in the near futurе"
--------------------------------------------
There is a difference between present and future :D. You can change the historical books in FYROM, but you can not change the real historical facts from the biggest universities, because all world know the truth.

If one considers firstly, the role that collective Identity played in the regional upheavals of the 19th-20th centuries and secondly, the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate, then one could get close to understanding why it is, that some Slavic speakers in the greater-Macedonian region feel a sense attachment equally as strong as the Greek one.

From since the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate, Slavist mind-architects began a process which saw the systematic seperation and segregation of a Balkan peoples who's Identity traversed language and centered more around religion. A Greek speaker and a Slavic speaker could feel a fraternal closeness and belonging almost to that of kin, and in some cases were kin.

From since the resurrection of Bulgaria as an Independent nation state in the Balkans, Slavist mind-architects felt it necessary to kick-start a seperation process in amongst a Christian Orthodox population who's loyalties in the main were with the Patriarchate of Constantinople, but from since the establishment of the Bulgarian Ecxarchate, were coerced and sometimes ruthlessly, to change based on their language.

Slavic speakers were alotted into the Bulgarian Exarchate camp whist Greek speakers were alotted into the Patriarchate of Constantinople camp...both Orthodox Christians and both Macedonians, the difference was linguistic. Simple-minded gullible people were told, if they speak Slavic they are Bulgarians and Exarchate so many Slavic speakers, even bi-lingual ones were forced into making the change.

Slavists coerced simple-minded Christian Orthodox peoples to chose between Excarchate and Patriarchate camps based on their own perceived ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic affiliations. Because the Slavic language was the prevalent one, more generally used than the Greek language, most Slavic speakers were alotted, changed over to the Exarchate camp.

With hind-sight, looking back...If one considers first the role that collective Identity played in the regional upheavals of the 19th-20th centuries, the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate seperated the peoples needlessly. Had the Russians not revived Bulgaria, the oldest known legitimate Slavic entity in the Balkans, the peoples of FYRoM today would be Greek speakers and Slavic speakers sharing fraternal bonds with their southern neighbours traversing culture language and religion and a Greco-Slavic Macedonian Identity rooted to the baptism of the Slavic tribes when they accepted Orthodox Christendom and the ways, traditions of Byzantium!

Greece should be proud that a small neighbouring country wishes to share some of it's history in order to establish their identity in a region of the world which spawned Hellenism, the Greek-Hellenic language and culture. Learned people know Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity were a Greek speaking Hellenic people, they also know that FYRoM is inhabited by Slavic speakers, Serbians and Bulgarians. If this newly established country wants to be called Macedonia, it has the absolute right to so...but Greece also has the right to defend it's cutural heritage. Greece sees itself as the sole-legal guardian of Hellenism, a custodial responsibility who's primary objective is to safe-guard and preserve Hellenism's cultural heritage. FYRoM's Identity issues threaten the very fabric of these responibilities.

Greece would be proud of FYRoM if only it promoted it's Hellenic Identity, Greece would be more proud if FYRoM promoted Hellenic cultural values and even prouder if FYRoM venerated Hellenism's ancient hero's but it does NoN of these things...What FYRoM does is this:

1...FYRoM uses a Greek-Hellenic name to Identify with but does not recognize the Greekness of that name.

2...FYRoM, far from promoting Hellenic cultural values denigrates them...virulently.

3...FYRoM venerates Greek hero's but not as Greeks, they venerate Alexander the Great as Aleksandar Veliki, the first Czar of the Slavs.

So what do Greeks do, do we sit back and watch a small South-Slavic country make fun of Greeks and Hellenism ???

The West gave them the time of day back in 1991 and GW Bush
recognized them as "Republic of Macedonia" back in November 2004...a fatal and flawed decision based on poor substandard and ill though-out advice. Those advisors to GW Bush left us a problem to deal with who's legacy we can trace back to the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate.

Modern Greeks do have a language connection and their culture is rooted in ancient Greece. The expansion of the Hellenic culture was largely due to Alexander the Great, we have him to thank for that. On the other hand, we have FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs who speak a Slavic language and espouse descent from him and ancient Macedonia. It is not that difficult to support the Greek position is it, afterall, who could find fault with what has been stated above. It would make more sense to an outsider if FYRoM were to assert their identity and culture on the modern Slav-Macedonian model rather than on the ancient Hellenic model. With a qualifier in front of their name, the name issue becomes irrelevant and "something-Macedonia" is far more sensible name than the acronym FYRoM.

If FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs wish to go round calling themselves descendents of Alexander the Great thats fine, nobody can stop them, it does raise some eyebrows though. He was recorded in the mainstream historical narrative as the Greek King of Macedon and all of his ancient Kingdom of Macedon is situated in Northern Greece...No amount of story-telling can change this. If they were honest and Identified as Slavic-Macedonians who are seperate and distinct from Macedonian Greeks, there would not be any problems but instead, the FYRoM government attempts to build an identity based on "ancient Macedons" who were Greeks and that makes it a problem for Greece because that territory is inside Hellenic borders, todays Greece.

Lest we forget...Pre 1944 FYRoM's population was mainly self-determined Bulgarians that spoke the same langauge as their Bulgarian ancestors. The language they speak today is not that different from Bulgarian proper, just five Serbian letters different from the original Bulgarian their ancestors used, the difference is in the name. Before 1944 it was unashamedly called Bulgarian but come the autumn of 1944, Slavist philologists from the old-Yugoslavia Serbianized the Bulgarian language by adding five Serbian letters to it and calling it "Macedonian language."

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs can not hide their Bulgarian past so why bother...Greeks can not permit SerboBulgarian speaking South-Slavs to adopt or usurp an ancient and archaic Greek-Hellenic regional-tribal name, which has been in constant use in the Hellenic world for Millenia, surely our Slavic neighbours can appreciate this.

Why do the Greeks insist on calling the multi-ethnic country above them, the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or FYRoM, and its two-million-strong population Skopjians, when the old-Yugoslavia disintegrated a long ago. If there is a "Macedonian language" then surely, there must be a "Macedonian people" and a "Macedonian" state...If these questions are still being asked, then surely one needs to learn the history of the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula before passing judgement. This being the Balkans, the origins of the problem go way back, though not all the way back to Alexander the Great. From 1944, when Comrade Tito designated the Vardar region of South-Serbia "The People's Socialist Republic of Macedonia," Greece did complain but the complaint was with-held, however, it register enough for the Western powers of that time to send out an official bulletin communique by the Secretary of State Edward Stettinius. 1944, Stettinus expressed concerns about Comrade Josip Broz Tito creating a "Macedonian" province and a "Macedonian" consciousness instilled into the minds of a South-Slavic population who's constituants were ethnic-Bulgarians in the main. Stettinius saw the destructive potential in Tito's choice of a name describing an ancient geographical area, 51% of which is located in modern Greece, 9% in Bulgaria and 39% in Yugoslavia. His description of Tito's actions as "a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece" manifested years later when Tito's so called "Macedonians" crossed into Greece as combatants in Greece's anti-communist civil war (1946-49) Tito's decision was also a consequence of the 1921 Moscow resolve by Comintern and the Balkan communist parties to pursue autonomy for Macedonia, and to include this most strategic region of the Balkans into the Communist camp.

After 1944, The Yugoslav Communist Party initiated four constitutive elements which were manufactured to aid in development of a pseudo-Macedonia nation.

1...Language, in the autumn of 1944, the Western-dialect of the Bulgarian language was named "Macedonian Language," but as a dialect it lacked linguistic characteristics such as syntax, orthography and grammar, so a special committee of Slavist philologists and linguists was formed to transform the dialect into a language. They added five Serbian letters
to it and introduced "Serbisms" which distanced it from the Bulgarian language but only just.

2...Just a Year later in 1945, the Vardar region of South-Serbia gets renamed to "Socialist Republic of Macedonia" initiating the establishment of a Macedonian Government and Parliament.

3...In 1968, the atheist Communist Party of Yugoslavia established an autocephalous "Macedonian Church" which to this day, is still not recognized by Orthodox Christendom nor the Vatican.

4...In 1969, the three-volume "History of the Macedonian Nation" was published and circulated, self-appropriating all of Macedonia's events and personalities of the past four thousand years. The falsification of ancient European history had begun.

Macedonia and Macedonians are Greek terms which nobody else can use, or attempt to use in the ethnic-racial, nation or cultural-linguistic context...only Greeks have the right to apply them in that fashion. A NoN-Greek Macedonian Nation outside of the Greek-Hellenic Core has never existed in historical verity. To create one now would an Anathema for Greeks, it would be a cause to take-up arms. FYRoM can not hide it's Bulgarian past. The language spoken there is a dialect of Bulgarian which belongs to the Slavic family, it is Not Macedonian and neither is their Identity.

History is important...just ask any Historian, I mean, a real time-served accredited one. Those who do know history express historical facts. Those who don't know history express opinions. Macedonians have always been Greeks, this is a historical fact, not an opinion, so here are some more historical facts:

1...Slavs arrived in the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula during the 6th Century A.D. This is a historical fact the Academy of Arts and Sciences in FYRoM adheres to this, much to the surprise of the country's hardened propagandists.

2...In the 9th Century, two Greek monks, Methodius and Cyril illuminated the Slavs, baptized them Christianized them into Orthodox Christendom and into the ways and traditions of Byzantium. Cyril is accredited with inventing the Cyrillic alphabet, something which enabled the Slavs to start a literary tradition of their own.

3...Slavs do not connect or have historical bonds to the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula proir to the 6th Century, A.D. nor any political bonds prior to the 9th Century. The Macedonians however, existed in Greece from since Millenia.

4...In 1913 the borders between Greece and Serbia were defined on the basis of the advances of the armies of the two nations during the Balkan wars. Greece regained long-lost Macedonian lands from the Ottoman Turks.

5...The borders between Greece and Bulgaria were defined at the Treaty of Bucharest (1913). Since then the borders of the three nations have remained unchanged.

6...Macedonia, a region of Greece from since ancient times, was divided into three, perhaps even four parts, with Greece keeping the largest portion 51%. Yugoslavia received 39%, Bulgaria 9%, and Albania the rest. The Greeks in Macedonia have been there from since the very beginning, before the Slavs arrived.

7...All ancient-Greek Identities related to the city-states ceased to exist from since the prevalence of the Romans in 168, B.C. Macedonia, like all the other Greek regions, has remained just a geographical area.

8...Three ancient-Greek theaters still exist in Greek-Macedonia, those of Dion, Philippi, and Vergina. The ancient-Greek playwright Euripides wrote the tragedy "Bachaee" in Pella, a play with a Macedonian theme, which premiered in Dion. Euripides died and was buried in Macedonia. It should he noted that in the ancient world only the Greeks had theaters, until the arrival of the Romans who promoted and continued the Greek-Hellenic culture.

If the Greek-Hellenic race ceased to be, ceased to exist, got wiped-out and became extinct, as those Slavist-Turanid historians suggest in their pseudo-scriptures...who would claim their legacy. If there were no Greeks today to claim the ancient-Hellenic legacy, classicist historian scholars would still designate Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity into the Greek domain, in with the rest of the Greeks, into the Greek-Hellenic collective of peoples. Academia treats history as a discipline like other academic subjects and as such is open and subjected to scrutiny and examination.

About Macedonia and Macedonians...The evidence unearthed and collated thus far proves the existence of a material culture which is found to be consistant and compatible with that of the Greek-Hellenic culture. Manufactured products made in Greece or ancient Hellas are found strewn across the globe from Iberia (Spain) in the West to the Crimea (Ukraine) in the East. Alexander the Great spread that material culture further eastwards to the Hindu Kush and beyond. Ancient Macedonians used materials that were made in Greece, even when they were far away from their homelands. Considering the latest archaeological finds, the debate (non-politicized) whether they were a Greek speaking Hellenic peoples would undoubtably, place them in with the rest of the Greeks.

But, if there are No Greeks today to claim their legacy, who in the modern-age would designate themselves a Hellenic past. Who would be designated the closest modern humans to the ancient Greek-Macedonians. Today, whatever genetic proof we have, proves, that today's nations blend-in and are most similar in biological and genetic terms to their immediate neighbours. All the nations of the Haemus (Balkan)peninsula have assimilated neighbouring peoples and also, complete outsiders, but the original elements are still there discernable and make-up the substratum.

If those Slavist-Turanid historians are correct, that the ancient-Greek (race) peoples, including Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity ceased to exist, because they got wiped-out...the nearest, closest modern humans to them would be the current inhabitants of the lands the ancient-Greeks considered primordial homelands of the Hellenes. Wherever the ancient-Greeks dwelt, they left their mark in the form of a genetic signature, a genetic footprint which is still discernable in all those place where the ancient Greeks dwelt. The genetic geography of that Greek-Hellenic footprint is Mapped-out in the works of one of the World leading geneticists, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza.

There are No Greeks today because the ancient Greeks got wiped-out...This is what those Slavist-Turanid historians teach young Slavic-Turkic children in their pseudo-scriptures but according to Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, one of the World's leading geneticits, the nearest, closest modern peoples to them are todays modern-Greeks...plus their immediate neighbours, who have absorbed some of that Greek-essence, and can now boast partial-Greek ancestry.

The nearest, closest modern peoples to the ancient-Greeks are todays modern-Greeks...Go figure!

FYRoM's territory was never part of the ancient Macedonian Kingdom lead by Phillip and Alexander. FYRoM carry's that name today, courtesy of the latin-Romans, by virtue of the fact "Macedonia" was extended by them to cover much of ancient Dardanian and Paeonian lands centuries after Alexanders the Greats death. The Slavic speaking peoples of FYRoM have no right to use a Greek-Hellenic name for their new Slavic country, nationality, language and ethnicity to describe themselves.

There is a dark-sinister side to this name dispute between FYRoM and Greece...dark enough to warrant scrutiny. Layer after layer we witness FYRoM's Bulgarian past incrementally peeling-off, and along-side with that, comes fact after fact complimenting evidence after evidence proving beyond reasonable doubt, Macedonians Greek-Hellenic Identity.

If not for the right of self-determination, FYRoM can not invoke, draw-on, employ or fall-back on any further rights to legitimize it's claims to the much vaunted Macedonian Identity FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs covet so much because quite simply, there are no further rights to invoke. The basis on which FYRoM claims Macedonian Identity rests on the one singular universal right to self-dermination. FYRoM can not invoke autochthonous rights nor draw-on historic rights prior to the 6th Century A.D. neither can it employ rights to protect it's linguistic or cultural heritage for they to, date back to the settlement of the Slavic tribes into the Greco-Roman world.

Dark and sinister then...to watch FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs ((Serbians)(Bulgarians)) push for a Macedonian Identity they have No rights to, other than the one singular universal right to self-determine as they wish or see fit.

Why do Slavic speakers from the old-Yugoslavia, from Serbian and Bulgarian stock, wish for, or see fit to use, the Macedonian name for their new Slavic country, nationality, language and ethnicity. FYRoM has No historic, linguistic or cultural right to invoke in order to legitimize it's want of a Greek-Hellenic name.

More darker and more sinister is this:

Why do FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs want to specifically use the "Macedonian" name in the ethnic-racial, national and cultural-linguistic context when all these Identity factors are proven to be Greek-Hellenic.

Spooky, right

Aleksandar says: let me be what I am - a Macedonian, who speaks Macedonian, with my own Slavic history. I do not want to be a descendant of Alexander the Great but I do want to venerate him, an ancient hero of the lands who's name we carry today. I know what I am:

I am (i) Orthodox (ii) Macedonian (iii) Slav.

Proud of them in the same order....Enough for me.

​

Alexander says: let me be what I am - a Macedonian, who speaks Greek, with my own Greek-Hellenic history. Alexander the Great is my ancestor, an ancient-Greek hero who spread Hellenism, the Greek-Hellenic language knowledge and culture to the farthestmost regions of the then known ancient world. I venerate Alexander for his achievements to world history. I know what I am:

I am (i) Orthodox (ii) Macedonian (iii) Greek.

Proud of them in the same order...Enough for me.

@ Nick the Greek

Please turn on the news. Broken, bankrupt, dysfunctional Greece needs your help.

the slavs have been in the balkan since the 6th century, where have your countrymen been for the preceeding 1500 years. the greeks have no claim to the name macedonia in the 21st century, the name macedonia has been lost to history. the history you speak of, the history you preach is a history drafted by cambridge and oxford university don's that romanticise athenian democracy (parthanon), it is a western fabrication that is not based on fact. republic of macedonia is now in its elementary exploring the land, there is significant question whether the peoples (slavs) advanced from the carpathian mountain southward to the balkan or whether the macedonia advanced northward to and beyond the carpathian mountain. your sense of history may be fabricated and misplaced, it is an english interpretation of history, it is not the actual history of the people inhabiting eastern europe. the people of eastern europe continue not to be regarded well in the west, their scholarship is disregarded, no matter how factual it is. the actual historic reality is a real dilemna for the western backed greek govt. which is not prepared to look at the truth. 

@ Nick the Greek

I hear crickets outside. The world must be listening to you.

@ Nick the Greek

Shhhhhh and listen...that's the sound of nobody caring what you think.

tell this shit to the existing 137+ countries that recognise the republic of macedonia, there are about 190+ member nations in the united nations, they will laugh you to scorn. refer to the encyclopaedia brittanica 1910 edition, to discover that macedonia was recognised at that time, that macedonia was a land predominantly settled by slavs and whose capital was solun. refer to the treaty of bucharest of 1913 to find that macedonia was partitioned. aegean macedonia was renamed the greek northern province, to dilute the predominant slavic pop'n there was a resettlement of christian turks into the region. you are a dispicable conman, thief and liar. you will rot in hell for the sinfulness you show.  

The best analogy which best depicts and Illustartes the Silliness of the name dispute between FYRoM and Greece is this one:

Two John Smiths could live in peace next door to each other, but if one of those John Smiths usurps the Identity of the other one, that would be called Identity theft or in the FYRoM case...cultural thivery!

It is just plain wrong Morally...for one of those John Smiths to claim he is the other one. The Absurdity of the name dispute between FYRoM and Greece is as simple as that, analogy above.

The abuse of a human right is when it is used on the basis of...because it can be used. FYRoM uses this one singular universal right to self determine, on the basis it simply can be used because the right is there to be used. The problem is this: FYRoM can not invoke, draw-on, employ or fall-back on any other right than the one, singular, universal right to self-determination. FYRoM has No historic, linguistic or cultural rights to use, and on this the basis, it can not validate or substantiate it's claims to a Macedonian Identity to which it has No entitlements.

The most Absurd analogy would be this one:

John Smith could use that human right, that self-determination right to name himself Donald Duck. There would only be a problem for him if another Donald Duck exists and feels strongly enough to want to defend and protect his Donald Duck Identity from being usurped by John Smith who wants that Donald Duck Identity exclusively for himself, solely on the basis of one singular universal human right which entitles him to use a Donald Duck Identity which already exists...

...Absurd in the Extreme, right!

To use a human right on the basis it is there to be used, and then proceed to abuse that human right is Morally Wrong...Not legally Wrong, there, is the difference.

The problem for FYRoM is this:

As a new country wanting a name to Identify with...It has the absolute right, legally to self-determine the way it wishes or sees fit, but the worlds Moral Compass knows it is wrong to want to usurp exclusively, another peoples Identity for country, nationality, language and ethnicity use!

Everybody has the right to self-determine the way they wish and the way they see fit, but this right is universal, it must apply to everybody...so common sense must prevail here otherwise we may get into a situation where an existing Identity, long established and attributed to a peoples for millenia is wantonly usurped by Others!

Human rights and the rights of modern people to self Identify as they wish, is no longer considered viable or even appropriate in light of the FYRoM - Greece name dispute and in the face of strong academic arguments which favour the rights of existing autochthonous peoples Identities...Greeks have been using that Macedonian Identity in the regional-geographic context for millenia.

It should be made clear to FYRoM that Macedonians already exist...they are Greeks, their Identity must be respected.

Because logic, fair-play and common sense dictate: human rights exist for everyone, FYRoM wanting to Identify as Macedonia on the basis, the right is there to be used, is an abuse of that right and an afront to those Greeks that have been using that regional Identity from since ancient times. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs declaring themselves "Macedonian" is problematic and confusing, Macedonians already exist, they are Greeks and Greeks have rights also. Human rights are universal, for everybody!

Greeks were Macedonians first...long before FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs developed their supposed feelings and collective memories for Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity, respect where respect is due!

Macedonia:Ethics and Self-Determination

If the right to self-determination is coupled with appropriating another country's regional name, history, language and in some cases, territory...then maybe the name dispute between FYRoM and Greece needs to be re-examined.It is one thing to self-determine using another peoples Identity, but it is quite another to claim other peoples ancestors. In fact it becomes rather dark, spooky and sinister to want to do that in the first place. Lest we forget, Nation-states are modern constructs but one can not deny-dismiss a peoples cultural and linguistic roots. The Greeks, on the basis of historic rights are perfectly entitled to prevent the appropriation of their history.

FYRoM lost something in the eyes of the World the day it decided to misappropriate well-Identified Hellenic things, like names, symbols, the heraldry and the regalia that are usually associated with Hellenism. The day FYRoM encroached on Hellenisms hero's was the day it was recognized by the outside world that FYRoM was not a serious country to do business with...more Interested in bad-mouthing Greeks and engaging Greeks on their genes, skin colour, anthropology, history and a whole range of other aspects to which FYRoM holds sway rather than being seen preparing itself for Euro-Atlantic Integration.

FYRoM does have the right to self-determination, but to chose the name of another peoples and then want to usurp that name exclusively, and then attempt to appropriate the ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic history associated with that name, just grates and puts FYRoM in a dark place. It gives the impression that FYRoM is a country wanting to usurp totally and utterly a regional-name at the expense and exclusion of all other peoples in the vicinity!

A country's name defines the nation's Identity and one country's right to be called Macedonia stops where another nation's identity is compromised. Self-determination...Yes, everybody is entitled to this right, but FYRoM does not have the right of entitlement to usurp totally and utterly another peoples cultural-linguistic history, let alone their ancestors. Ethics and Morality come into play here, we all carry these self-adjusting bio-meme meters in the form of Moral Compass. Most people in this World can make a judgement call based on the wrongs and the right of any given situation once they have learned enough about the subject matter, and in the FYRoM - Greece name dispute, most people would judge it Wrong for FYRoM to be misappropriating things which did not belong to it in the first place.

Greeks are both realists and pragmatists...they realize it would be next to impossible to get a whole nation of peoples from varying ethnic backrounds to agree to change the name of their country, their language and their nationality under pressure from a neighbouring country, so Greece shall not apply pressure but take a principled stand on the issue applying only sapience and methodology, and every conceivable academic tools made available in order to show the world that Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people and their self-determination rights should also be respected.

Under different circumstances, Greeks would have been flattered to see another country and another peoples use some Greek-Hellenic denominations for their airports stadiums, high-ways and street-furniture etc, Greeks would have seen these actions as a reasons to be cheerful but if that country then went on to name itself after a Greek name and then went to claim Greek history and Greek ancestors, that would totally freak the Greeks out, and this is what FYRoM does to the Greeks...spook them and freak them out with their antics. Most Greeks would simply like to know, why FYRoM's Slav-Macedonians, a Slavic people speaking a language close to Bulgarian but calling it "Macedonian" language, want to be named after a Greek regional-tribal name...Not that it matters or anything wrong about it, but nation building and the founding of national myths must have some connection to the historical reality of the place.

FYRoM's actions have not only spooked the Greeks, they have spooked the EU UN USA Nato and the International academic community with it's antics...that is why it is kept at arms length, at a distance until somebody in that country decides finally to get real!

It is ethically and morally wrong in absolute terms to use a fundamental human right for unethical and immoral reasons. By self-determining as Macedonians, simply because FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs have the right to do so is an ethical question. The want to use the Macedonian name at the expense and exclusion of much older Macedonians is simply Wrong, it is unethical and immoral, and most people when becoming learned on this matter agree. FYRoM does have the right to self-determination but it grates, when FYRoM then goes on to use another peoples ancestors and the history they made. Most peoples Morall Compass would judge FYRoM to be in the wrong. Self-determination does not extend to the misappropriation of another peoples ancestors and the history they made. Sharing a name Yes, but usurping it No!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs have no more right to link themselves to ancient Macedonia than all the rest of the peoples residing in the central Balkans. Other than the regional-geographic attachment, there is nothing much else which binds FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs to the area prior to the 6th Century A.D. which opens up the question of the existence of older-Macedonians, the ones that were already there before the Slavic incursions...the Greek speaking ones.

The more we learn about FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs the more FYRoM's position becomes untenable. The question which shall always haunt them is this:

Why would a "Bulgarian" speaking SouthSlav reject totally, his Bulgarian Identity and bet everything on some fuzzy philological-linguistic argument that his language differs from Bulgarian enough to be called "Macedonian language" and then proceed to explain to us his fuzzy revisionist pseudo-history in order to support the notion he is related in some way to ancient Macedonia ???

The deeper we involve ourselves in FYRoM's murky Macedonian adventure...the deeper we get into learning about their real Identity. Layers and layers of Macedonian dressings serve only as veneer and that veneer is just not enough to hide the Bulgarian underneath!

At the time of Alexander the Great, present day FYRoM was mostly occupied by Paeonians, not Macedonians. Macedonians were, in fact, Greek...denying this is beyond comprehension because there is absolutely no doubt about it. Alexander the Great is a Greek historical character and FYRoM's absurd claims to him actually do more to undermine their cause. The presence of NoN-Slavic peoples in what today are Slavic lands is documented in Greek and Roman historical records and in archaeological records. There is absolutely No doubt there were No Slavic speaking peoples in present day FYRoM during classical times. Most of old-Yugoslavia was situated on ancient Illyrian lands. The only real answer is to revisit pre-Alexander the Great borders and use the names from that period of history, so FYRoM becomes Paeonian land inhabited today by Slavic speaking Bulgaro-Slavic people.

It has to be said: FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions mostly emigres in diaspora even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity. The twentieth-century development of a "Macedonian ethnicity," and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the old-Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs who have had no history, invent one, plunging their relationship with the neighbourhood and especially Greece their southern neighbour into turmoil.

Encore everyone!!

"This state with its phantom pensioners and rich people that don't pay taxes, a state without a functioning administration, has no place in the European Union"...

"...in dilapidated shape and (that) is an unbearable burden".

@ Nick the Greek

Shhhhhh and listen...that's the sound of nobody caring what you think.

you don't know anything about slavic history, why don't you keep quiet, macedonians have no confusion over their identity. we don't need a fool like you to tell us who our grandparents and great great grandparents were. you have absolutely no business discussing macedonia, you yourself acknowledge that the region of macedonian was occupied by the romans for 1000 years and the slavs for the preceeding 1500 years, where do the greeks take- off to tell the slavs that they can not use the name macedonia. the fact is that macedonia and the name macedonia has been lost to the greeks for in excess to 2500 years. why don't you and your countrymen get lost!

In the West, FYRoM was welcomed with open arms and told to embrace it's new-found rights and freedoms as it was slowly Introduced into the capitalist free-market economies of the Western World it had no access to, from since 1945. Nobody ever thought that FYRoM would take those rights and freedoms to the extremes, nobody in the West even considered the possibility a new Slavic statelet would abuse the right of self-determination in they way FYRoM abused that right.
It is one thing to name a new country after an ancient-archaic, regional-tribal Greek-Hellenic name, but it is quite another thing to claim the ancestors associated with that name and the history they made.
Macedonia(n) is a recognized Greek-Hellenic Identity rooted in classical antiquity. Greeks were told nobody can take ownership over a name, and FYRoM is entitled under the human rights charter to self-determine in any way it wishes or sees fit, Greece gave way and watched FYRoM do much more than that. FYRoM took that opportunity to "abuse" the right of self-determiantion by going much further than anybody ever thought would be possible. FYRoM scripted itself a history and a heritage which made ancient Macedonians Slavic and Alexander the Great the first Czar of the Slavs.
The West abandoned the FYRoM cause immediately it was realized the new Slavic statelet had issues with Hellenism and with it's Identity. Western sponsors halted their support for FYRoM the moment they noticed it was more Interested in promoting anti-Hellenic propaganda than prepairing itself for Euro-Atlantic Integration.
Two decades later, FYRoM is still trying to persuade and convince the outside world that they are Macedonians and ancient Macedonians were Slavs.
The West gave FYRoM the opportunity to Integrate into the Euro-Atlantic economic and security structures of the EU and Nato but FYRoM squandered that opportunity by teaming-up with an anti-Hellenic alliance made-up of Slavist-Turanid revisionist pseudo-historians who's sole purpose is to bad-mouth Greeks and denigrate Hellenism!
After two decades...FYRoM is still more into that Slavist-Turanid alliance than into the EU and Nato, go figure!

@ Zem Mighty Tatr-Bulgar

Don't waste your time and energy with Nick the Greek, the world doesn't care about Greek position on Macedonia - the world doesn't care about Greece period. Greece is going bankrupt and the country is disintegrating before our very eyes.

@ Nick the Greek

Shhhhhh and listen...that's the sound of nobody caring what you think (see above).

Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage, it is rooted to the ancient Greeks...modern Greeks have rights, cultural-linguistic and historic rights to that name, and to that Identity. FYRoM's rights to that name rests solely on the basis of just one-singular universal right, the right of self-determination to which it has entitlement. The problem for FYRoM is this: It does not have any other rights to invoke, draw-on, employ or fall-back on, it has No cultural or linguistic rights, No historic rights. FYRoM got to be Macedonian on the basis of a one-off, singular, universal right to self-determine.

FYRoM's claims of a Macedonians Identity rooted to the ancient Macedonians are absurd in the extreme to the point where it becomes almost comical to discuss, on par with the Donald Duck analogy which goes like this:

If John Smith wanted to self-determine as Donald Duck, there is very little you or I could do about it, because John Smith has a human right to that. John Smith can invoke a universal human right to self-determine as Donald Duck if he wished it or if he saw fit to do so.

FYRoM's claims to a Macedonian Identity rest solely on that one-off, singular, universal human right of self-determiantion. FYRoM has no other rights to invoke, draw-on, employ or fall-back on!

John Smith could excercize his right to self-determine as Donald Duck, this actions would only be in jeopardy if another *Donald Duck objected to John Smith usurping his name.

The other *Donald Duck would get even more spooked if that John Smith character posing as Donald Duck, went on to use *Donald Ducks ancestors and the history they made for his own!

Confusing, right...but Comical Confusing!

Greeks are Not to blame for FYRoM having serious issues with Hellenism and self-Identity...Greeks did not Indoctrinate them, Slavists did that! Slavists tried to make Macedonians out of Serbo-Bulgarian speaking South-Slavs!

The Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage, it is rooted to the ancient Greeks and modern the Greeks have fraternal rights to it, they have cultural-linguistic and historic rights to that name. Greeks have absolute family bonds and kinship rights to that Identity. So, why would another country want to take a name which does not belong to it, fraternally, culturally, linguistically or historically. FYRoM's actions are erroneous and irrational, they want to proceed in taking that Macedonian name on the basis they have the right to do so, based on the UN-human rights charter of self-determination.

FYRoM does have the right to self-determination, this is a universal right and clearly understood, but the moment that right infringes on another peoples Identity then their must be recourse, a legall framework whereby such matters are discussed and resolved admirably and peacefully.

The FYRoM - Greece name dispute negotiations have been on-going now for two-decades. FYRoM wants the Macedonian name for their new country, nationality, language and ethnicity
but for Greek objection. Greece says, that name belongs to Greek heritage, FYRoM says, it has the right to self-determine using whatever name it so wishes or so choses. After two decades, the dispute is still with us unresolved but there appears to be a push now to get it resolved. The best solution must be a lasting solution, so it must be binding and legal.

The Greeks see FYRoM's actions as being preemptive and opportunistic usurpation of a Greek-Hellenic name to which FYRoM has No other right bar the one-singular universal right of self-determination. FYRoM has No fraternal, cultural-linguistic or historic rights to that Macedonian name. The Greek fear has always been this: If FYRoM was awarded recognition of that Macedonia(n) name for country, nationality, language and ethnicity use, that would entitle FYRoM to claim the history and legacy of ancient Macedonia. Macedonians have always been Greeks, they have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people, family to the rest of the Greeks, making it impossible for Greece to relinquish it's fraternal attachments to that name.

(John Smith = FYRoM) Greeks see FYRoM's actions in this context:

I accept John Smith's right to self-determination, but I shall stop short of recognizing his choice of name if that name-Identity belongs to my fraternal family tree.

If John Smith decides to proceed with that recognition of one of my family names, by hanging pictures of my family on the walls of his house and decorating his house the same as my house...I shall consider those actions dark, spooky, and sinister, and I shall take the necessary precautions to protect myself and my ancestral inheritance from the likes of that wierd character...John Smith!

Two John Smiths could live in peace, side by side next door to each other, but if one John Smith decides to usurp that name totally and utterly at the expense and exclusion of the other John Smith, then that would be considered Identity theft, but in FYRoM's case...Cultural Thievery!

On the legal level, FYRoM is perfectly entitled to self-determine using a recognized Greek-Hellenic Identity belonging to Greek heritage...Greeks can do very little about it because Greece is a signatory to the UN-human rights charter. Greece, however, can point-out that what FYRoM is doing is Wrong on the Ethical - Moral level!

Greeks are determined to use every conceivable Academic and Political Tools made available to it which help Greece defend and protect it's Hellenic cultural heritage. Where, in the Ethical - Moral dimension, has it ever been considered acceptable, for a newly emergent peoples in need of an Identity to Abuse a human right simply because they have issues with Hellenism and self-Identity.

I put it to You...FYRoM has abused it's right to self-determination on the basis the right was there to be used and for No other reason. FYRoM can not invoke, draw-on, employ or fall back-on on any other right bar just that one-off, singular, universal right to self-determiantion. FYRoM contests Greeces fraternal ownership of the Macedonian name on the basis it has issues with Greeks and Hellenism. FYRoM's Interests have always been to discredit the Greeks based on past wrong-doings to the one-time Slavic Minority in Greece.

Lets assume that the Greeks were right all along...that FYRoM is a victim and the by-product of some ages-old Pan-Slavist born Idea to Slavicize a stealthy portion of the Balkans by incorporating the Northern coastal stretch of Greek-Macedonian territory into some kind of Slavic entity or federation. From since it's inception, everything FYRoM has done seemingly supports those fears, that Slavists, whether Pan, Communist or free-marketeers in Ideology still plot and scheme to take from the Greeks, their North Aegean-Macedonian coast line, significantly reducing Greek-Hellenic territory to pre San-Stefano times. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs being the victims and a by-product of those Slavist-born Ideas would never know that. That they were primed and conditioned, manipulated to develop ethnic pride and national feelings centered around a Macedonian Identity. A Macedonian Identity outside of it's regional-geographic application was only ever envisioned by Exarchists from since the ressurection of Bulgaria (1878) as an Independent nation state...revived to promote the Slavist Interest in the Balkans by off-setting the expansion of Hellenism.

From since the advent of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the common peoples of the southern Balkans were alotted into the Bulgarian Exarchate camp on the basis of their language. Slavic speakers were considered Slavic and Bulgarian, and on that basis were alotted into an ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic affiliation which did not reflect faithfully their real ethnic-pride or national feelings, as evidenced in the case of the Slavophones, who are Slavic-speaking Greeks with Greek national consciousness.

Slavists, whether Pan, Communist or free-marketeers have plotted and schemed to make Macedonians out of South-Slavs, and we watched them doing it, in the Slavist-schools of the old-Yugoslavia. We watched Slavist philologists create a Macedonian language and we watched Comrade Tito as he created a "Peoples Socialist Republic of Macedonians" and we continued to watch Communist Atheist Slavists as they created a Christian Orthodox Macedonian Church...we watched and did nothing because we could do Nothing!

But Now we can...we can stop FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs from becoming Macedonians in the Greek sense of the word by applying the Slavic label on them. By telling them every day
they are SouthSlavs and foreign to Greeks. By making them aware that their language is 5 Serbian letters away from proper Bulgarian. By educating them in the classics. By telling the world...Macedonians have always been Greeks. By providing primary and secondary sources of Information where Macedonians proclaim their Greekness. By providing the material evidence to prove, beyond reasonable doubt that Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people.

Only FYRoM's hardened propagandists and severely brainwashed Individuals think of themselves as Macedonians and ancient Macedonians as Slavs whilst completely denying the Greek-Hellenic Identity of Alexander the Great.

It is all but given, clearly understood that Macedonia is a region and not an ethnicity, thus, there should be some form of distinction between the groups that live in that region. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs have the right to be called whatever they like so long as they do not use or plagiarize the history of another nation and so long as they dont claim the territory from another nation, but FYRoM is seen to be doing these things, evidence in the Maps they worship and in their historical revisionist pseudo-scriptures.

Sadly the communists have gone but their propaganda remains. The Idea that a newly emergent nation could simply invent it's own history and it's own ethnicity by taking those elements from neighbouring peoples is morally and ethically wrong.

The absurdities that would come from FYRoM if they were recognized as "Republic of Macedonia" would (i) default their nationality to Macedonian and (ii) their Bugarian language was renamed to Macedonian language, this would default their ethnicity to Macedonian. These are outrages the Greek peoples simply wont tolerate.

They use terms like "ethnic Macedonian" when it is known, Macedonia(n) is a regional Identity not ethnic or national Identity. The most appaling absurdity though, is when they push for recognition of the Slavic minority in Greece, describing them "ethnic Macedonian" minority, in essence creating a Macedonian minority in a region where there is a substantial Macedonian majority...how absurd is that!

Greece has nothing to hide and needs nothing to prove, the onus is actually on FYRoM to compromize in order to find a suitable more proper name for itself that will end the name dispute in mutually beneficial and cordial manner.

Greeks should feel flattered that another people want to attach themselves to Greece and Greeks...imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but when FYRoM does it, it appears they do it more for the gratification factor they glean from belittling Hellenism and ridiculing modern Greeks.

In fact, Greeks feel rather insulted, watching a small impoverished newley emergent Slavic statelet make-fun out of them and their cultural heritage.

it is a held belief that 'alexander the great' was a very honourable man; he would be turning in his grave if he knew his countrymen in the 21st century refused to pay their taxes and claimed pensions(phantom). this is the thieving greek mentality at its most obvioust, who would trust a greek to tell history- the greeks are the byzantine/ the greeks are the greco- romans/ the greeks are SS. Kiril and Methodia/ the greek has an existing territory- macedonia(norther province)/ the greek accompanied 'neil armstrong' on a lunar mission.
ROT and DIE GYPSIES!!!

Thick Illiterate TurkoSlavic Runts

greek gypsie, no more borrowed euro to support your deadbeat countrymen, you may have to refer to aristotle to explain to you the idea of working for a living!seems that you and your countrymen are to smart to do any work.see you bums out of the european union! macedonia will very soon take its place in the european community and nato.god is watching and paying you back, you deadbeat gypsies, please make some more world news we love watching you deadbeats fighting amongst yourself. 

The assisination of the Greek National character surged-up a few notches on the back of the name dispute with FYRoM. Every Greek-hating man and his dog jumped on the band-wagon to discredit the modern Greeks, these were Isolated on two fronts:(i) National Character, and (ii) the very essence and fabric of Greek Identity.

Before the advent of FYRoM onto the world stage...the Greek National character was depicted within the framwwork of Religion and a bias for Business entrepreneurship. Greeks were seen as God-fearing, Church-going, Family-oriented Mediterenean peoples, much like other Southern-Europeans. Come 1991, when FYRoM entered onto the world stage, attacks on Hellenism, the Greek-Hellenic culture and the Greek peoples themselves, were hurled around like there was no tomorrow. Greeks woke-up one morning to find they were being attacked on all sides. A barrage of Insults, an onslaught-discharge, mocking the modern Greek on his race, his skin-colour, genes, anthropology, language, religion, culture and traditions.

Analysts quickly realized, the racist elements in those attacks emanated mainly from Turko-Slavic sources. The attacks on the very fabric and essence of Greek Identity emanated more from Western sources, Press and Media in particular. The attacks on the Greek National-character emanated from various sources, see here:(i) Western,(ii) Turko-Slavic, and (iii) Turko-Israeli...courtesy of that one-time strategic alliance between Turkey and Israel. The
Greeks were now, being discredited on three fronts.

That Hellenism was under attack, was seen within the framework of a speech, supposedly given-out by Henry Kissinger at some convention back in the mid 1970's where these words were supposedly attributed to him:

"The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East."

That the modern Greek and his culture, and the very essence and fabric of his Greek Identity were being attacked on all fronts and on all those factors gleaned from that speech, was experianced and real, evident and in your face hard-core real. Greeks were being rubbished. Greeks watched as their National character was being assassinated by Western elements and by Turko-Slavic elements, and by that Turko-Israeli element which is now extinct, it expired due to a falling-out, a disagreement between Turkey and Israel over the Palestinian issue.

continued......

Macedonia:Is FYRoM Primitive or OpportunisticWay before Alexander the Great, there was a King Perdicas of Macedonia, we know him as Greek, and we know the ancient Macedonians as a Greek-tribe rooted to the Dorians. The Spartans, we know them as Greeks, also rooted to the Dorians. So where is the confusion...except in the minds of some Turanid influenced Slavist revisionist pseudo-historians, who teach their respective Turkic-Slavic children, pupils and students that the ancient Macedonians were not Greeks but Slavs.

Do we need to give them the time of day, when it is known, long established, that ancient and archaic, regional-tribal name Macedonia, derives from the ancient Greek adjective "makedons" meaning "tall," which occurs in the Homeric poems....do we really have to entertain those Turko-Slavic revisionist pseudo-historians with classical-history when it is known, they took something good like the classics and converted them into something Vulgar.

Do we really need to point-out to them, that the names the ancient Macedonians used were all typically Greek-Hellenic, like: Alexander, Amyntas, Antiochus, Cleopatra, Philip, Ptolemy...do I really need to list them all, for their sake when it is known, that those Turko-Slavic revisionist pseudo-historians reject all Western Interpretations of classical historical texts.

Do we need to highlight to them, the fact that all of the place names on ancient Macedonian soil were all typically Greek-Hellenic, like: Heracleia, Pella, Aenae, Thessaloniki.
Do we really need to stoop down to this level, to make them see that everything about Macedonia and Macedonians is Greek
and not Slavic.

Do we really need to reiterate to them, that "Macedonian" Identity belongs to Greek heritage. That Identity today is a shared one. Must we explain to them that Macedonia is a region, purely a geographical term. Must we point-out when it is already known, recorded in the mainstream historical narrative that Macedonia was settled during the middle-ages by various nomadic peoples, of which the most numerous were the Slavonic speakers...Macedonia today, is an area shared by Greece, FYRoM and Bulgaria, it is inhabited in the main by Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians, respectively.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs applying the "ethnic Macedonian" label to themselves is rather sneaky because there is no such ethnicity, at least, you wont find it rooted in historical verity, which means, it is either a recent construct or just created now, out of thin air, for dubious Slavist reasons. There are no "ethnic Macedonians" as there are no "ethnic Spartans" or "ethnic Athenians" or "ethnic Corinthians," one can not simply attribute ethnicity to geographical term. In the same way Scandanavia is a shared geographic term...so is Macedonia a shared geographic term.

Rather sneaky then, for a newly emergent peoples to wantonly apply to themselves an ethnic tag, from an otherwise regional-geographic term. Rather sneaky and rather degenerate to go for a preemptive strike at grabbing the Macedonian name, an opportunistic attempt to usurp completely, the Macedonian name for their new Slavic country, nationality, language and ethnicity. "Macedonian" is an Identity which belongs to Greek heritage. Do we really need to be stooping down to FYRoM's primitive levels of understandings of classical antiquity!

Within the framework of human rights and the human rights charter, at which point does it become an abuse...When one invokes that right, knowing full-well and in advance it would it be considered like rocking the boat, or creating waves or causing ripples, to use naval speak.

When one is staking a claim to a name, there ought to be a point in the judicial process, where that name is checked against a list of names for possible misuse, and if so, the legal consequences that misuse would generate. For example, if a dubious claim was placed, that claim would immediately get scrutinized and weighted against the possible harm it would generate or the ripple effects it would cause.

When FYRoM staked it's claim to the Macedonian name...if such a system was in place, it would have been immediately pointed-out to FYRoM that if it proceeded with it's claim it would be considered as rocking the boat, creating waves and causing ripples at various levels through-out the political world, because that name was already in use at the regional-geographic level, and in use in the Hellenic world for Millenia.

Ofcourse, such systems are in place, but they are usually overridden by more pressing concerns, more to do with political expediancy than to do with academic or political correctness. In FYRoM's case, the West thought they were gaining a partner for peace, and a partner for trade and commercial Interests. In the event, FYRoM proved to be neither of those things.

The West accepted FYRoM with open arms but for Greece, who had objections against FYRoM usurping totally and utterly, the Macedonian name, and wanting exclusivity for country name, nationality, language name and ethnicity. FYRoM knew full-well and in advance the problems it would cause the political world, but emboldened by Western backing support and sponsorship for it's cause, it pressed ahead anyway.

FYRoM did misuse it's right to self-determination...FYRoM knew it had No rights to that name. FYRoM placed a stake on that Macedonian name on the basis it could, simply because it had the right to do so...just one-singluar, universal right to self-determine after a Greek-Hellenic name, No other rights but that one.

Greeks have Fraternal, Cultural, Linguistic and Historic rights to that Macedonian Name. That name belongs to Greek heritage yet FYRoM had the front and the gall to go for a preemptive strike at trying to grab it solely for itself, and it was prepared to Abuse a human right to do that!

137+ nations recognise and accept macedonia by its constitutional name from a membership of 190+ nations in the UN; in effect all these countries are imbeciles and in the wrong, yet you naturally have an opposing position and are correct. the energy and resources of these 137+ nations delivers an opinion that is very much at odd with your biased opinion and guess what you are right. why don't you go into the garage of your house, get a nylon rope, tie it to the rafter of your garage and then hang yourself. you are a worthless piece of shit!

bullshit! have a look at the bulgarian soldiers on youtube fighting in the balkan wars, you will see tall elegant and distinguished white men uniformed. gypsie! looking forward to the new world order, usa/ west is almost finished, then some real sanity will return to how things are conducted in this world. you and your pathetic countrymen will be told to take a hike!macedonia and thrace are slavic regions! 

Macedonia is purely a geographic term. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage...these are facts, known facts. Macedonia is a geographic term much like Scandanavia is a geographic term. Like there is No Scandanavian Nation, or Nationality, or Language, or Ethnicity, the same rules apply to Macedonia.

If a new country emerged in Scandanavia, and then decided to invoke the right of self-determination, staking a claim to the name "Republic of Scandanavia," would it be considered erroneous and irrational, bearing in mind that such an entity would have No basis or validity in historical verity. If that newly emergent country then had a dubious political history stretching back just a few generations, where it became part of an overall agenda to a particular Ideology, to create a Scandanavian Nation from an otherwise disparate population who's ancestors were neither Indigenous nor Autochthonous. If that country then went on to claim the history and heritage, the heraldry, pageantry and regalia of everything Scandanavian, right from since classical Proto-Scandanavian antiquity...would the modern Scadanavian county's accept such an abomination amongst them.

Yet in geographic Macedonia, this is exactly what is going on right now. FYRoM is a newly emergent country with a disparate population who's dubious history stretches back just a few generations, and who's conception was born from an aged, outdated Ideology with an agenda to create a Nation of Macedonians who's ancestors had no earthly or natural connections to geographic Macedonia.

Scandanavia is purely a geographic term in the same way Macedonia is purely a geographic term. The difference between the two is this: (i) The Scandanavia geographic region is peopled in the main, by a contiguate Nordic population who's primordial genetic consistancy was never displaced, it remained largely intact, whereas (ii) The Macedonia geographic region had it's primordial genetic base displaced by layers and layers of incoming invader-settlers who settled and contributed to the geography's genetic signature.

Macedonia is a geographic term, like Scandanavia is a geographic term. Scandanavian Identity belongs to Nordic heritage in the same way Macedonian Identity belongs to Hellenic heritage. That FYRoM could simply invoke it's right to self-determine as "Republic of Macedonia" and then proceed to usurp the geographic regions history, names, symbols, heraldry, pageantry and regalia, is an afront to the host culture and a major insult to the regions Indigenous Autochthonous peoples...Greeks could never accept such an abomination on it's Northern borders.

FYRoM had No right to attempt a preemptive strike at usurping the Macedonian name exclusively for country use, nationality use, language and ethnicity when it is known, these Identity factors were all Greek-Hellenic and foreign to Slavs.

Within the context of political correctness and within the framework of human rights...FYRoM has presented the world with a very unique problem, where on the legal level it is perfectly entitled to apply for that Macedonian name but on the Ethical - Moral level FYRoM is viewed as being in the Wrong and opportunistic, almost an Abuse of the human right to self-determination.

John Smith is perfectly entitled to self-determine as Donald Duck, he has the absolute right to do so, but if Donald Duck objects to John Smith usurping his Identity, who
is being irrational ???

Greeks are not related to the ancient-Greeks but FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs and some Turanid revisionist pseudo-historians connect themselves, evidenced in their own pseudo-scriptures, to the ancient-Macedonians and the ancient-Trojans respectively.

If modern peoples are disjointed from their progenitor namesakes, and show no relatedness to them, other than the name they adorn...how did they come-by that name in the first place, and why did they apply that name to themselves. If it is true, the ancient Greeks died-out, expired and became extinct as some Turanid-Influenced Slavists suggest, why do modern Greeks exist and what is their relatedness to their progenitor namesakes. That modern Greeks boast fraternal, cultural, linguistic and historic connections to their progenitors should satisfy that uncertainty but in their circles, those questions still persist.

Greeks face an enemy in their own primordial homelands, a Turko-Slavic enemy, born from a mish-mash of disparate peoples from the old-Yugoslavia, who want to see the Greeks expire and become extinct. They want to see the Hellenic culture disolve and disappear from the Haemus peninsula and they want to replace Hellenism, the host-culture with their own unique Turko-Slavic one.

Turko-Slavic revisionism and pseudo-history teaches young Turkic children and young Slavic children that Greeks do not exist, that Greeks died-out and became extinct, and todays Greeks, modern Greeks, are not real Greeks but a creation of the West, created to cheat the Turko-Slavic peoples of the region from their real history and heritage, which they equate to ancient-Troy and ancient-Macedonia respectively.

This is what the Greeks are facing, this is what Greeks have to deal with...brainwashed-Indoctrinat ed Turkics and Slavics wanting to erase the Greek-Hellenic host culture from the Haemus peninsula, the place that spawned Hellenism. Modern-Greeks are not related to the ancient-Greeks but FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs and their Turkic supporters are related to the ancient-Macedonians and ancient-Trojans respectively.

I say, keep them at arms length, at a distance until they learn to respect more, the Haemus peninsula's host culture and the modern peoples that still relate to it fraternally, culturally, linguistically and historically...today's modern Greeks!

Macedonians are Greeks from Macedonia. Macedonia is purely a geographic term, much like Scandanavia is purely a geographic term. Macedonian Identity belong in the past, it belongs to Greek heritage. Macedonian Identity forms a part of Greek Identity overall much like Spartan Identity and Athenian Identity...must I list them all!

I say again...Macedonians are Greeks from Macedonia. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are Serbians and Bulgarians from Paeonia...where is the confusion but in the minds of some brainwashed Indoctrinated South-Slavs.

Unlike our Western European cousins, Greeks find themselves handi-capped by geography and by uncompromsing neighbours. They consider Hellenism to be a loaded word. Where Hellenic Ideals and core values mean little and count for nothing. Greeks find themselves suffocating in their own homelands!

Ther winds of change are coming to the Balkans...Long live Hellas, long live the Hellenic people!

said the TurkoMongoSlavic Abdul!

Son of Mehmetin and Gorana = Abdul!

resentful little TurkoMongoSlavic Abdul!

@ zem mighty tatr-bulgar

Like I've said, don't waste your time and energy, Greek people are impossible.

Broken, bankrupt, dysfunctional Greece is now in Brussels begging on hands and knees to get their 130-billion euro second bailout...so much for Greece being great country. Greece is now living on perpetual welfare from the European Union.

Greeks have an inability to get along with anyone. Everyone else is wrong or screwed up but them.

@ Nick the Greek

from "Corporate Germany wants Greece out of EU":

"This state with its phantom pensioners and rich people that don't pay taxes, a state without a functioning administration, has no place in the European Union," Bosch CEO Franz Fehrenbach told Manager Magazin...

When asked what policymakers should do if Greece doesn't leave of its own accord, Fehrenbach, who was not speaking in any governmental advisory capacity, replied: "Then the EU must change its laws and expel it, as difficult as that may seem."

There is growing lack of trust in Germany that Greek politicians are prepared to implement reforms promised in exchange for loans that can prevent a disorderly default come March, when 14.5 billion euros of debt matures.

Fehrenbach described Greece as a country in a "dilapidated shape and (that) is an unbearable burden" for a European community based on mutual solidarity.

"I believe that kicking Greece out would discipline other states with high deficits," he added...

The Haemus (Balkan) peninsula spawned Hellenism, it is the primordial home of the Hellenic culture...a dominant and resiliant culture, evidenced by it's very survival and by the way that it has influenced the structures of Western society. Hellenic Ideals and Core values form the basis of Western civilization. Todays Greeks boast fraternal, cultural, linguistic and historic connections to that culture and to that civilization. Todays Greeks are the sole and legal modern representatives of the Hellenic legacy...guardians and custodians of Hellenism.

Like the Haemus is a peninsula, so is Scandinavia. The Scandinavian peninsula is home to a Nordic culture and Nordic civilization, it is populated by a variety of Nordic country's and they all live in peace, side by side, like brothers and sisters because they know, they are from the same stock who's genetic base and consistency was never displaced, it remained largely intact. If a new country was to emerge in their peninsula, and wanted to usurp the Scandinavian name for country, nationality, language and ethnicity use...how would the rest of those Nordic Scandinavian country's feel, having a NoN-Nordic peoples usurp their name, symbols heraldry, and the pageantry-regalia, associated with it get awarded to NoN-Scandinavians, on the basis they have the right of self-determination, and they could use or abuse that right to name themselves after a geographic term like Scandinavia.

Similarly, if a new country emerged in that Scandinavian peninsula and elected to name itself after a regional-part of that peninsula...would it be any more acceptable!

If you understand the above scenario, then it goes a long way to understanding the FYRoM - Greece name dispute. If you really do understand the above scenario, then you would understand what Greeks have endured, and are still having to endure. Greeks are trying to protect one of their regional-tribal names from getting usurped by a NoN-Greek peoples that have no other rights to that name bar that one right of self-determination. FYRoM Abuses that one-singular universal right to stake a claim to a regional-part of the Haemus peninsula who's Macedonian Identity belongs in classical antiquity to Greek heritage.

Like Norbottens Lan is the Northernmost region of Sweden and borders onto two other Nordic countrys in the Scandinavian peninsula...it has regional-geographic similarities to the Hellenic Republics Northernmost region of Macedonia, in analogy terms. So, would Sweden then, accept, a newly emergent NoN-Nordic peoples wanting to use the Norbottens Lan name for their new NoN-Nordic country, nationality, language and ethnicity when all of those Identity factors are proven Nordic and Swedish. In analogical terms, the Macedonian region of the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula is the equivalent to the Norbottens Lan region of Scandinavia.

Macedonians are Greeks from Macedonia. Macedonia is a Regional-Geographic term...like Norbottens are Swedes from Norbottens Lan...Where is the confusion when it is known Norbottens Lan is a Regional-Geographic region of Sweden.

In analogical terms, both Macedonia and Norbottens Lan are the Northern-most regions of Greece and Sweden respectively, neither Greece nor Sweden would accept another country usurping out-right, their regional-tribal names. For analogical purposes, see this:

There is No unique "Republic of Norbottens Lan"
There is No unique "Norbottens Lan Nationality"
There is No unique "Norbottens Lan Language"
There is No unique "Norbottens Lan Ethnicity"
All these Identity factors belong only to the Swedes.

There is No unique "Republic of Macedonia"
There is No unique "Macedonian Nationality"
There is No unique "Macedonian Language"
There is No unique "Macedonian Ethnicity"
All these Identity factors belong only to the Greeks.

So, FYRoM is unique in that it wants to usurp the name of a Geographic term exclusively for itself, so that it can then turn around to the world and say look at me, I am Macedonian from Macedonia because I speak the language of Alexander the Great.

The difference between Scandanavia and the Balkans is this:

One is Primitive and the other one is Not!

Thick Illiterate TurkoSlavic little Gits...Abduls Mehmetins and Gorans thought they could rewrite the ancient history of Europe to include themselves in it!

TurkoSlavic shitts!

It is Wrong for a NoN-Greek people to Idolize Alexander the Great just for the gratification factor they glean from watching Greeks squirm at their antics.

Normally, Greeks would be flattered having another country exalt  their hero's and their culture etc, but when FYRoM does it, it is done in a spooky way which belittles and insults Hellenism...

...which is in line, consistant and compatible with Pan, Communist, Free-Marketeer Slavist doctrine, which teaches the destruction of Hellenism in it's own homelands.

Something spooky in watching South-Slavic people glorify an ancient-Hellenic figure...not as a Greek but as a Slav, something very dark and sinister about that!

the honourable gentlemen from the anglo- american encyclopaedia brittanica 1910, seem to strenuously disagree with the statements that you make. if you look- up the encyclopaedia brittanica 1910, believe it or not under the direct reference macedonia, you will discover that a non- partitioned macedonia article has been provided. macedonia is described believe it or not as a territory predominantly occupied by slavs, the capital of macedonia is specified as solunica. it would seem that macedonia had been in that state for the preceeding 1500 year, I wasn't able to find any newspaper clippings in the athens public library nor transcripts in the greek parliament that criticised that description. I may be illiterate but, heck I ain't damn stupid like you!  

Slavs did not come into the region as Macedonians...they came into the Greco-Roman world still using their Avaro-Hunnic Tribal names and their Bulgaro-Slavic Tribal names...the question which must be asked is this: When was it exactly, did the Slavs aquire the Macedonian name for ethnic - tribal - racial  use!

The people that live in FYRoM today, actualy live on ancient Paeoninan land...not real or proper Macedonia.

Macedonians have always been Greeks...Macedonia is a regional-geographic term. The Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage. So, with credentials like this, it is no wonder that Greeks wont permit NoN-Greeks to adopt or usurp the Macedonian name exclusively for their new Slavic country name, nationality, language or ethnicity.

The ancient-Macedonians were a Greek speaking Hellenic peoples and so were their Kings, so FYRoM celebrating Alexander the Great as the first Czar of the Slavs is just plain Wrong...but what makes it worse is when those celebrations are made on the Hellenic Republics doorstep, in a neighbouring country by a neighbouring peoples who have shown themselves to be hell-bent on denigrating Hellenism and ridiculing modern Greeks.

Normally Greeks would be flattered, having a neighbouring country exalt ancient-Greek hero's but the way FYRoM does it is an afront and a major insult to Greeks and Hellenism, their cultural-heritage.

It is Wrong for a NoN-Greek people to Idolize Alexander the Great just for the gratification factor of watching Greeks squirm at their antics.

Swedens Northernmost region...Norbottens Lan, draws many parallels with the FYRoM - Greece name dispute issue if it is imagined in the same way as Macedonia. Both are regional geographic terms of peninsulas with strong dominant Nordic and Hellenic cultures, but imagine now, a Macedonian history for Norbottens Lan.

The Norbottens Lans analogy is a good one because there are many parallels if you look for them...with the FYRoM - Greece name dispute issue. There are many inverted parallels also, if you look for them.

That a native host culture is in decline in the Scandinavian peninsula, dominated now by the more resiliant Nordic one, is an inverted parallel mirroring what may happen at some stage to the Hellenic culture in the Haemus peninsula.

If the native host culture in the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula was ever to give way to the more numerous Turko-Slavic culture...well, you could draw your own parallels.

In either case, here, we have just pointed-out something very important...that Indigenous native-original host cultures must be protected!

iGENEA institute confirms Macedonian ancestry- Indigenous Peoples in Macedonia
Antic (ancient) Macedonians 30 %
Teuton 20 %
Slav 15 %
Hellenic People 15 %
Illyrian 10 %
Hunnians 5 %
Phoenician 5 %

According to traditions, Athena was born in Africa, on the shores of the lake Triton. Many later classical Greek art works depict her as African. To her was attached the goat cult, and initiates into her mysteries wore the goat/ram shroud, symbol of rebirth. Herodotus later remarked that the dress of Athena resembled that of Lybian women in every way, except that the latter had a dress of leather with fringes of leather thongs. These "leather" fringed, columnar skirts of women are seen in the Saharan cave frescoes. The skeletal remains of these people streched across mainland Greece, the islands, and extended as far as Illyria, the Balkans, 
Evidence of their survival into the Bronze age of Crete is evident:

"Early minoan bones from a rock shelter at Hagios Nikolaos (24 women) are described as being of pygmy dimensions (Bushman)...An early Neolithic series of sixteen skulls of adults from other Mesara tombs, probably not earlier then Early Minoan III, or Late Minoan II fall as low as 72.4(dolichocephalic)"

This substratum was submerged by people from North Africa, Palestine, and Asia minor, whom Dr. MacKenzie called a LONG-HEADED DARK TYPE: "That is, of same type as the predynastic Egyptians." 
He Further stated, "So striking is the uniformity of the population that in all essential details, they resembled the people of Somaliland."

Indeed, modern research still confirms this is in that "skulls found in Crete, and distributable to the Bronze Age Minoan periods, may be indicative of some degree of GENETIC ISOLATION from the hybridization going elsewhere in the mediterranean region.

L.Angel, who has excavated on the Greek mainland and examined skeletal remains found evidence of this type also.
H.R.Hall has suggested a southern origin for this stock, and North Africa as it chief seat. 
C.A.Winters call this people PROTO-SAHARANs, who worshipped a female deity. 

(African presence in early Europe, Volume 7, Issue 2, By Ivan Van Sertima)

On the origin of Mongoloid component in the mitochondrial gene pool of Slavs
B. A. Malyarchuk, M. A. Perkova and M. V. Derenko   The data on mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) restriction polymorphism in Czech population (n = 279) are presented. It was demonstrated that in terms of their structure, mitochondrial gene pools of Czechs and other Slavic populations (Russians, Poles, Slovenians, and Bosnians) were practically indistinguishable. In Czechs, the frequency of eastern-Eurasian (Mongoloid) mtDNA lineages constituted 1.8%. The spread of eastern-Eurasian mtDNA lineages belonging to different ethnolinguistic groups in the populations of Europe was examined. Frequency variations of these DNA lineages in different Slavic groups was observed, with the range from 1.2 and 1.6% in Southern and Western Slavs, respectively, to 1.3 to 5.2% in Eastern Slavs, the Russian population of Eastern Europe. The highest frequency of Mongoloid component was detected in the mitochondrial gene pools of Russian populations from the Russian North and the Northwestern region of Russia. This finding can be explained in terms of assimilation of northern-European Finno-Ugric populations during the formation of the Russian population of these regions. The origin of Mongoloid component in the gene pools of different groups of Slavs is discussed.

Afro-Turko-Mongo-Slavs

and they gipsy too

Macedonian gene ? You guys are so gullible!

Macedonians were the Greeks from  Northern Greece...from the Northern Greek Kingdom of Macedonia. I never heard a Greek claim to be Macedonian by gene!

This is so retarded, but then you guys are the retards of Europe.

you talk out of your ass!your opinions and that is all that they are, are worthless and illogical!its just your verbal diahorrea and nothing more!
FYRoM's Slavic speakers today remain the junior partner in any ancestral inheritance claims to the ancient Macedonian legacy, for Greeks still continue to use that name and that Identity and consider themselves to hold seniority position on the hierarchy table.
absolute rubbish! you are a godless piece of shit!

we dont want them, nobody wants them except the Turk, they should re-Turkify themselves and go Ali Baba!

SLAVOTARTERS

readers interested in real history should follow the following link-
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/GreekEvidence.html
'nick the greek' one man's verbal diarrohea.
the australian govt. to soon abandon greek rhetoric follow the link-http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20414/45/

Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage.

Custodial responsibility for that heritage falls on the shoulders of the modern Greeks on the basis of fraternal, cultural, linguistic and historic connections to them.

No other modern peoples are closer. Todays Greeks are the closest modern humans to the ancient Macedonians...the sole and legal modern representatives of the ancient Hellenic legacy.

FYRoM's rights to the Macedonian name are actually based on just one right, and that is the universal right to self-determine as you wish or as you see fit...so FYRoM took this right to mean it could usurp the Macedonian name exclusively, completely, totally and utterly for itself.

But FYRoM does does not have fraternal, cultural, linguistic or historic rights to that name, in the way that the Greeks espouse to have. So FYRoM's right to that name is on an equilibrium with that John Smith analogy which goes like this:

Two John Smiths could live in peace, side by side next door to each other...but if one John Smith attempts to adopt-usurp the Identity of the other one, that would be called Identity theft but in FYRoM's case, cultural thievery!

So FYRoM's rights evidently, only really extend to that one-off, that one-singular, universal right of self-determination.

It's quite absurd really, to make a song and dance about FYRoM's so called Macedonian Identity on the basis of just one right to self-determination...that would equate or be on par with wanting to self-determine as Donald Duck on the basis you could, simply because you have the right to do so!

It should be pointed out to FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs that they do not have real or natural rights to that name...No fraternal rights, No cultural rights, No linguistic rights and No historic rights.

The only rights they have is based on that one-off,  that one-singular universal right of self-determination.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs celebrate Alexander the Great in Skopje on what basis...they have No historic rights to his legacy, so why do they do it! 

Absurd in the extreme, right!

Greece has fraternal, geographical, cultural, linguistic and historic connections to Macedonia...FYRoM does not, on this basis FYRoM cannot usurp another peoples regional-geographic Identity in order it wants to construct a National-Identity of it's own. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage. Greeks still use that Macedonian term in the same way they have always used it from since Millenia. In the case of National state symbols, flags etc, they are protected under International law but with specific catagories of names, it seems the right of self-determination takes precident.
FYRoM excercizing it's right to self-determination borders on abuse when it wants to use that Macedonian name for ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic purposes, for these Identity factors are all Greek-Hellenic. If a newly emergent nation like FYRoM wantonly takes the opportunity to name itself Macedonia, and then proceeds to claim the history and honours associated with that name, that would be called Identity theft and cultural thievery.
Greece has reacted admirably, struggling to sustain the integrity of it's National history from Slavist attempts to de-Hellenize the ancient Macedonians. Greece has every right to defend and protect it's cultural heritage from the likes of FYRoM's opportunist preemptive strike at usurping the Macedonian name for it's National Identity.
A Nation of Macedonians outside of Hellenism and the Greek-Hellenic core has never existed in historical verity. To create a Nation of Macedonians now, from NoN-Greeks, namely SouthSlavs from Serbian and Bulgarian stock is simply anathema for Greeks, they would not accept such an abomination on their northern border...it would be a cause for Greeks to take-up arms in order to return the Macedonian name back into the Greek domain.
 

readers interested in real history should follow the following link-
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/GreekEvidence.html
'nick the greek' one man's verbal diarrohea.
the australian govt. to soon abandon greek rhetoric follow the link-http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20414/45/ 

readers interested in the truth should follow the following link-
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/GreekEvidence.html
'nick the greek' one man's verbal diarrohea, no cohesion with reality.
the australian govt. to soon abandon greek rhetoric follow the link-http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20414/45/ 

Alexander the Great was the Greek King of Macedon. Ancient Macedonians were indeed, in-fact and in reality, ancient Greeks. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are Serbians in the lesser part and Bulgarians in the major part, they are from Slavic stock who's ancestors mixed ((by force)(by free will)) with the local Indigenous peoples that lived in the region, here we are talking about Greco-Romans not ancient Macedonians.

The question which needs to be asked is this: Do those Slavic speaking Serbo-Bulgarians from the old-Yugoslavia have the right to usurp the Macedonian name on the basis their Slavo-Bulgar ancestors settled the Haemus and mixed with the local "Romioi" Greco-Romans at the top-end of the 6th Century A.D. I say No, because inheritance rights are based on ancestral blood connections. It could be argued that mixing between incoming Slavic settlers and local Greco-Romans would have produced children with rights to Greek ancestry.

Children born from that union would be partially Greek, so their entitlements would be partial also, and treated in that respect, in that ages old tradition where the nearest blood relative gets the lions share of the inheritance. In the case of the FYRoM - Greece name dispute, the inheritance element is in-fact the Macedonian name. FYRoM's entitlement to that name would be partial entitlement, and only if it could prove kinship to partial Greek ancestry. If FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs could provide proof of their partial Greek ancestry, inheritance entitlements would come into play, they would have to stand in-line, in the que with the rest of the blood relatives claiming inheritance rights.

But how does one claim inheritance rights and specifically, entitlements to a name ?

FYRoM's claims to the Macedonian name are indeed, in-fact and in reality, a total sham based entirely on deception and fabrication because it cannot provide even one slither of evidence to substantiate it's claim. FYRoM can not provide proof of kinship to partial Greek ancestry even though they explicitly claim to have mixed with the local Indigenous Greco-Romans. They can not provide any proof of a natural relationship either to the lands of Macedonia or to the peoples of Macedonia in any real sense.

Greeks can provide geographic proof, fraternal proof, cultural proof, linguistic proof and historic proof linking them and connecting them to the ancient region of Macedonia.

FYRoM has No rights to the Macedonian name...It should not have Abused the right of self-determination on the basis the right was there to be used, taking the opportunity to claim the Macednian name for their new Slavic country, nationality, language and ethnicity.

Sheer Opportunism right! FYRoM nearly got away with it but for Greek Objections!

@ Nick the Greek

Shhhhhh and listen...that's the sound of nobody caring what you think. Like I said, I had a spinster aunt who used to talk to herself in the mirror, so we put her in a nursing home. Stop talking to yourself.

For umpteenth time, no one cares about Greek position on Macedonia. Absolutely no one. It's 21st century now, get over it.

Slavic speaking anti-Hellenic people Celebrating Alexander the Great as a Slavic speaking anti-Hellene is an afront to us Greeks...we take offence!

 

@ Nick the Greek

No one cares about Greek position on Macedonia...fa la la la la, la la la la...

Not one of the world's major superpowers gives a damn. U.S.? China? Russia? Israel? Who????

Greece is bankrupt and will revert to drachma before you know it. Greek economy presently in freefall and faces years of brutal austerity imposed by your fairweather friends and paymasters Germany and France.

And look at the prosperous, powerful Turks who are all laughing at you. Who is so smart now?

So shhhhhhh and listen...that's the sound of nobody caring what you think.

@ Nick the Greek

Just read this posting on The Telegraph (U.K.) comments forum:

"The Greeks are the worst nationalists one can ever come by. They are the best, the rest are s.it. They hate everybody else, but DO love their money!".

@ Nick the Greek

"The Greeks are the worst nationalists one can ever come by. They are the best, the rest are s.it. They hate everybody else, but DO love their money!".

readers interested in the truth should follow the following link-
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/GreekEvidence.html

the australian govt. to soon abandon greek rhetoric follow the link-http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20414/45/
'nick the greek' is a bout of one man's verbal diarrohea, he has no cohesion with reality. 

"This state with its phantom pensioners and rich people that don't pay taxes, a state without a functioning administration, has no place in the European Union." Greece is a country in "dilapidated shape and (that) is an unbearable burden."

"The Greeks are the worst nationalists one can ever come by. They are the best, the rest are s.it. They hate everybody else, but DO love their money!".

Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage...modern peoples wanting to use this Identity should at least flaunt their Greekness because it's not really about genetics but about cultural appropriation. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs in their Slavic dressing are Slav-Macedonians to the outside world but they could Hellenize, or Re-Hellenize in some cases, and they should be seen to do it willingly and voluntarily. This action alone would at least tie them into Hellenism at the linguistic level. The appropriation of Hellenic things by Slavs or Slavic speakers does not bode well with what is known about Slavs and ancient Macedonians.

In some cases, it has been observed that FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are South-Slavs but only reluctantly..."Slavs " by language, in name but not in substance. Genetically, the Balkans now, are inhabited by the same stock of peoples that inhabited it from since the Paleolithic. Genes don't lie and people just change their language, not their genes. So, whilst FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs walk and talk like South-Slavs, they could very easily flip-over to the Greek side.

Genes eh! Modern peoples genes do not measure, represent or reflect faithfully, who they are in terms of ethnic feelings and National pride...conversley, modern peoples today may carry genes that are not really compatible with who they are, in regards to their ethnic pride or National feelings.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs have played it all wrong...they chose to de-Hellenize Alexander the Great and th ancient Macedonians from antiquity when this is almost impossible to do. Had FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs accepted the Greekness of the ancient Macedonians and chose a Hellenic path for themselves, that Macedonian Identity they covetted so much would not have appeared so out of place on them under their Slavic dressing.

I say again...Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage!
Modern peoples today, wanting to Identify as Macedonians should at least flaunt their Greekness.

The problem for FYRoM today is this: It has none, it has No Greekness, in fact Hellenism for FYRoM is loaded word.

Alexander III of Macedon (20/21 July 356 – 10/11 June 323 BC), commonly known as Alexander the Great was a King of Macedon, a state in the north-eastern region of Greece, and by the age of thirty was the creator of one of the largest empires in ancient history. If FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs want some of this history...they sould Re-Hellenize, willingly and voluntarily and return back to the fold!

"The Greeks are the worst nationalists one can ever come by. (See remarks by Nick the Greek above and beyond). They are the best, the rest are sh.t. They hate everybody else, but DO love their money!".

@ Nick the Greek

Shhhhhh and listen...that's the sound of nobody caring what you think.

Macedonians started-off as Greek speaking Hellenic peoples. Macedonia, from it's earliest recorded history began as an ancient-Greek state. Macedonians considered themselves to be connected centrally to the Greek speaking host culture of the Haemus peninsula and that connection continued right through to the latin-Roman period, Greco-Roman perio and Ottoman period. Greeks regained Macedonia by conquest during Balkan War II, (1912-12) ejecting the Turk from Hellenic soil and bringing Macedonia back into Greek hands once more.It was only the modern era, (1945) the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia was created. Tito's Slavists re-named the Vardar region of South-Serbia to Macedonia on the basis of some Roman Maps which depicted and Illustrated an extended version of the original Greek region of Macedonia to cover South-Serbia and much of the Central Balkans.Never before had that Macedonian name been applied to Slavic peoples in the ethnic-racial, national or cultural linguistic sense.

Because FYRoM has sensitized the academic world, from ancient geographers to ancient-ethnographers...everything FYRoM says or does is open to scrutiny and examination.That
FYROM should consider another name is a true statement to make because the Macedonian name is strongly connected to Hellenism and the Hellenic world. Macedonias Greek-Hellenic credentials endorsed at the highest echelons of scholarly-academic office which leaves FYRoM with no choice but to cease it's revisionist hostilities towards the long established mainstream historical narrative.

FYRoM is a new Slavic state which can not boast a three thousand year historic or cultural-linguistic connection to the Macedonian name. FYRoM's disparate peoples are not even Greek speakers but Slavic speakers pretending to speak Macedonian on the basis Slavist philologists re-named a Slavic SerboBulgarian language to Macedonian. Greece, on the other-hand is backed by academic disciplines, scholarships and history, Greece could easily summon academia to uphold it custodial responsibilities towards the ancient Macedonian legacy.

In plain words and simple language...FYRoM is no longer taken seriously when it reaches back into antiquity pointing us to an Identity it covets but which is known to belong to Greek heritage. Macedonian Identity started-off in the Greek speaking Hellenic world, spawned from Hellenism and from the Greek-Hellenic language...FYRoM distorting this picture places itself further and further away from the mainstream norm, shoved up a siding, at arms length, at a distance from the European family of Nations!

"The Greeks are the worst nationalists one can ever come by. (See further remarks above by Nick the Greek). They are the best, the rest are sh.t. They hate everybody else, but DO love their money!".

readers interested in the truth should follow the following link-
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/GreekEvidence.html

the australian govt. to soon abandon greek rhetoric follow the link-http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20414/45/

'nick the greek' is not able to combat the above academic document, I wouldn't bother with his useless personal ravings, they are a waste of space! 

@ nick the greek
onesander has not been in macedonia for at least 2500 years, why would you transpose this culture on events 2500 years later and reminisce as if it were only yesterday. you are an alpha grade clown! 

Macedonian Identity does Not belong to Slavic speaking peoples. Macedonian Identity does Not belong to any Slavic peoples. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage and
Macedonian Identity belongs in the Greek domain. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greeks and Nobody else...we want it back!

FYRoM covets a Macedonian Identity to which it has little or no entitlements. FYRoM's so called Macedonian Identity rests on unstable foundations, baseless and without roots for which it compensated for by scripting itself a history and a heritage based on revisionism and pseudo-history.

FYRoM's Slavic speaking Macedonians believe their version of Macedonian history and Identity is the correct one and the neighbouring countries it borders have never really understood Macedonian history properly or correctly. The problem for FYRoM is this: Bulgarians, aproximately 300,000 of them want their Bulgarian Identity back and over 130,000 Serbs that came in as colonists to populate the northern territories when it was part of South-Serbia want their Serbian Identity back. With more than 700,000 ethnic-Albanians in it's number that do not Identify as Macedonians...FYRoM's communist-period concepts of monolithic Macedonian nationalism brings to the fore a Macedonian Identity based on potentially unstable and contentious foundations.

FYRoM's population of just over 2 Million disparate souls is getting to be less and less Macedonian in the FYRoM sense of that word and more and more Bulgarian or Serbian or Albanian!

Lest we forget FYRoM has the right to Self-determination but it was wrong of FYRoM to have knowingly abused a human-right, when it knew in advance and from the beginning that Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage. Macedonia is a Greek-Hellenic geographic term and regional-tribal name, spawned from Hellenism and the Greek-Hellenic language...so FYRoM really did abuse it's rights to self-determination when it attempted a preemptive strike at the total usurpation of an Identity known to academia to belong to Greek heritage.

Macedonia(n)...is a regional-geographic Identity not ethnic Identity or National Identity!

A Slav-Macedonian (ethnos) Identity has been in development mode from since the 1860's onwards, it can be traced back to the lead-up and formation of the Bulgarian Exarchate. Evidence for a Slav-Macedeonian Identity before the 1860's is difficult to find and harder to varify. Slav-Macedonians have the right to self-determine as Macedonian, but only in the regional-geographic sense and not in the ethnic-racial, National or cultural-linguistic sense. A Nation of Slavic speaking Macedonians has never ever existed in classical antiquity nor in the recent past, to create a Nation of Slavic speaking Macedonians now would be anathema for Greeks because Macedonians have always been Greeks. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage and in the Greek domain...

...Greeks want it back!

The fractious Greeks, they have always been fragmented, difficult to govern and even more difficult to tame, it was true then in ancient times and it is true now in the modern era. The fractious Greeks, a fragmented collective of >230 known ancient-Greek Identities...groups tribes and Kingdoms we have all learned so much about through their history, myths and legends which have been passed down to us from the mainstream historical narative.

The fractious Greeks, forever fragmented and disunited, until that is, Alexander the Great came along and united all of them as one peoples, as one Nation of Hellenes under the hegemony of the Northernmost-Greeks. Macedonians were just one of >230 ancient-Greek groups tribes and Kingdoms which together formed the Greek-Hellenic collective of peoples from classical antiquity.

Like the ancient-Greek Kingdom of Macedonia...Sparta was an ancient-Greek Kingdom also, Spartans and Macedonians originate from the same Dorian stock, who together with the Aeolians and the Ionians form the three main root races of the Greek-Hellenic peoples from antiquity. From them, I mean, from the Dorians, Aeolians and Ionians sprang forth combinations of Greek-Hellenic peoples, from which >230 of them are known to Graeco-Roman classicist scholars and academics alike.

The fractious Greeks, forever disunited and fragmented even to this day. It takes a War to unite them...and a strong leader to lead them. The trigger to signal the coming together of Greeks for common purpose has always been if Hellenism is under attack. Today, Hellenism is under attack and not just from one confrontational enemy but from a variety.

These words shall always resonate for Greeks:

"The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East."

From since this speech...allegedly given by Henry Kissinger
at some convention back in the mid 1970's, Greeks have been sensitized to the Idea that Hellenism stands in the way of globalization in that the coming together of one market-place necessitates the briging own of Nations to fascilitate common-market regional blocks of peoples that share same monetary living standards. This is assumed, by globalists to be the quickest way to produce growth in todays modern Integrated Industrialized economies.

Greeks have witnessed all those attacks depicted and graphically Illustrated in that supposed speech. The destruction of Hellenism, destroy the Greek Nation first and the rest shall be easy. Trading blocks shall replace Nations to fascilitate globalization. Greeks have witnessed attacks on their genealogy, their skin colour, their anthropology, their language, their religion, their culture and their traditions. Greeks have also witnessed their Western partners and their European cousins take part in the Character assassination of the modern-Greek, where the modern-Greek National Character is openly ridiculed in predominantly Nordic German and Anglo-Saxon press and Media.

The Greek National Character went from being seen as family orientated, God-fearing Church-going mediteranean peoples with a flare and a bias for business entrepeneurship to one of being lazy cheating Greeks, who's Greek attributes were open to question in British Tv games shows. Western Radio chat-show hosts were compromised to slot in the odd ant-Greek comment on air. Greeks know, most of these actions was done on the back of the name dispute between FYRoM - Greece where the West and moreso, the Euro-Atlantic economic and secuturity structures of the EU and Nato were applying pressure on Greece to accomodate FYRoM in it's want to name itself Macedonia. Greeks also know, the biggest damage done to the National character of the modern-Greek was done through the one-time Turko-Israeli alliance, now defunct, where Israeli global Media-assets were made avaiable for Turkish use, and along with FYRoM's diaspora, littered the Internet and other Media-outlets with virulent vehement ant-Hellenic propaganda.

The fractious Greeks, forever disunited and fragmented, only now have they realized...they are being ridiculed and humilated, not just by Turks and ex-Yugoslavs but by their Western partners and European cousins who have all played a part in the Character-Assassination of the modern-Greek. I say bring back that strong leader to re-unite the Greeks as one again...one Hellenic Nation to defy the globalists, one Greek-Hellenic collective of peoples that can stand-up to Fritz and Gunther Germanics and who can go tell them Abduls Mehmetins and Gorans where to get-off!

Greeks need Air and the space to Breath...suffocating in their own homelands, where foreign elements work to see the destruction of Hellenism!

From since 6th Century A.D. the Slavs came into the Greco-Roman world and settled the geographic region of Macedonia, and since then, the regions history and heritage became part of Slavic history...but from the 6th Century onwards. Before the Slavic settlements, the region of Macedonia already had a long history traversing a time continuum spanning Millenia. Greeks reserve the right to protect and defend their history from Slavic incursions prior to the 6th Century A.D.

Slavs came to Macedonia during the Greco-Roman period of history, they did not come in as Macedonians but as Slavs, their tribal names are known to historians and academics alike. Before the Greco-Roman period, latin-Romans ruled the land. Macedonia was part of the Western latin-Roman Empire. Italians dont't claim Macedonian history as Italian history and neither do the Bulgarians when Macedonia was part of the Bulgarian Empire. The Ottoman Turks also ruled over Macedonia but Turks do not claim Macedonian history for Turkish history. Similarly, Macedonia had been part of the Serbian Empire, but Serbs do not claim Macedonian history for Serbian history.

Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage and Macedonian history in all of it's entirety belongs to the Greeks. Greeks remember the latin-Romans then the Slavs, Bulgarians first and then Serbians and after the Slavs, Greeks remember the Turks. Greeks lost Macedonia through conquest but they always regained Macedonia back through conquest and now it is back in Greek hands once more. Macedonian history belongs to the Greeks...foreigners can not claim aspects of it for themselves and generally they dont but for FYRoM, who entered onto the world stage proclaiming itself the land of Macedonia where Macedonians live and claiming Macedonian history from since classical antiquity when it is known, Slavs were not around, they were nowhere near the Greco-Roman during the times of Alexander the Great.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs share the history of Macedonia with the Greeks from the 6th Century A.D. onwards, but as Slavs who accepted baptism into the Greek-Orthodox religion and into the ways culture and traditions of Byzantium. FYRoM has No right to encroach on aspects of classical Macedonian history when FYRoM's ancestors were not in the region prior to the 6th Century A.D.

readers interested in the truth should follow the following link-
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/GreekEvidence.html

the australian govt. to soon abandon greek rhetoric follow the link-http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20414/45/

'nick the greek' is not able to combat the above academic document, I wouldn't bother with his useless personal ravings, they are a waste of space! 

The people that now Identify as "ethnic Macedonians" are of Slavic stock. Their ancestors were actually Slavic migrant nomads that arrived in the Haemus peninsula around the 6th Century A.D. They have nothing to do with the ancient Kingdom of Macedon. In fact, authentic Macedonians are Greeks from Macedonia not Slavic speaking South-Slavs from FYRoM. At the greatest extent of the ancient Macedonian empire at 323BC, the year of Alexanders death, only a small portion of what is now FYRoM, was part the ancient Kingdom of Macedon. Paeonia, as it was called was never part of that ancient Macedon Kingdom...Paeonia remained outside, it retained its autonomy and paid tribute.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs do not connect to real Macedonia in land or in people, they cannot find linkage to antiquity in the same way Greeks are able. Greeks espouse fraternal connections and cultural-linguistic connections and historic connections to the lands and to the peoples of Macedonia, things which cannot be negated or dismissed easily.

The lure of Alexander the Great having Slavonic origins must be very appealing for the youth of Slavdom. Slavdom somehow becomes connected to the ancient-Macedonians and FYRoM becomes a Catalyst, the adhesive which binds all-Slavdom to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity...Slavists who imagined this, obviously have very vivid imaginations, we simply cannot let their imagination get the better of them.

The Idea that Alexander the Great was Slavic and spoke the language spoken in FYRoM is simply too preposterous to contemplate, but to young Slavic children...it is what they grew-up with, taught in the Slavist schools of the old-Yugoslavia to think of themselves as Macedonians and to think of ancient-Macedonians as Slavs

ALERT! ALERT! ALERT!

Disorderly Greek default will cost euro zone 1-Trillion euros...1-Trillion!!!

Worldwide stock markets have tanked today.

Everyone's screwed. Thank Greece!!!

@ Nick the Greek

Shhhhhh and listen...that's the sound of nobody caring what you think.

FYRoM's abuse of the right to self-determination causes problems and confusion, not least to their own children, pupils and students who think of themselves as Macedonians and think of ancient Macedonians as Slavs. By self-determining as a Nation of Macedonians, FYRoM committed a moral and ethical Wrong.

The Macedonians in FYRoM are Slavs from Slavic stock, they use the Slavic language and are closely related to Serbians and Bulgarians by blood and by language, and by customs and traditions, it is all Slavic. Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity had no relation to them.

FYRoM's Slavic nomad ancestors migrated to Haemus (Balkan) peninsula around the 6th Century A.D. FYRoM's use of the Macedonian name and references to Alexander the Great are purely symbolic. The Greeks have no ethnic divisions in their constitution, so everybody becomes citizen of the Hellenic Republic.

Greeks do not recognize Macedonians that are not Greeks because Macedonians have always been Greek, hence Macedonian Identity belongs to heritage, FYRoM was Wrong to self-determine after another peoples Identity. Macedonian lands and the peoples that inhabit those lands have been integral elements of Greek history and culture from since the forming of the first Greek-Hellenic tribes. Macedonians have been living on Northern Greek territory for almost 4,000 years. Macedonians are Northern Greeks or just Greeks from Macedonia.

Abusing the UN human-rights charter is one thing but to abuse history is quite another. Historian scholars and academics alike are focused on FYRoM like a lazer beam, there is nothing FYRoM can say or do without scrutiny or examination from World academia. The Greeks would never deny South-Slavic people their rightful history in the Haemus peninsula, starting from the 6th Century A.D., this is the reference point in history when both Greeks and Slavs started to share common history, good parts and bad parts. The next step is for FYRoM to find a proper more suitable name for itself and acknowledge in No uncertain terms, the Greek-Hellenic Identity of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity!

Macedonians are Northern Greeks...or just Greeks from Macedonia, an ancient border region and the Northernmost outpost of the ancient-Hellenic world. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not this type of Macedonian. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are South-Slavic peoples, recognized as such by all the Slavic countries of the world. It should be noted that Macedonians from the time of Alexander the Great were Greeks, blood related to the Hellenic tribes whereas FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are of Slavic origin and related more to the Bulgarians.

The Macedonian Identity is rooted in classical antiquity and it belongs to Greek heritage...FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs covet this Macedonian Identity at the expense and exclusion of the Greeks who's Hellenic language originated that name. That Macedonia was spawned from Hellenism is a true statement to make, something which cannot be negated or dismissed easily.

Everybody knows Leonidas was a Spartan Greek and Everybody knows Pericles was an Athenian Greek and Everybody knows Spartacus was a Thracian Greek and Everybody knows Timoleon was a Corinthian Greek and Everybody knows Archimedes was a Sicilian Greek...Everybody knows Alexander the Great was a Macedonian Greek but for the South-Slavic peoples of FYRoM who erected a gigantic statue of him in Skopje and revere him, not as the Greek King of Macedon but as Aleksandar Veliki, the first Czar of the Slavs.

Greeks are not the only ones to view FYRoM's antics as bazar and sometimes provocative, the International community view FYRoM as a country that has lost it's connections to the lands and to the peoples that once inhabited FYRoM lands in antiquity.

FYRoM lands were never inhabited by ancient-Macedonians, rather, they were inhabited by ancient-Paeonians who remained outside of the Macedonian Empire and paid tribute. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs wanting to connect themselves to the ancient peoples of their lands need to look at ancient-Paeonian history and not the ancient-Macedonian one they covet so much!

the slavs have been in the balkan since the 6th century AD. the greeks obtained the territory aegean macedonian following the partition caused by the 'treaty of bucharest 1913.'the anomaly is the occupation of aegean macedonia by the greek state.what you have written is ridiculous.
readers interested in the truth should follow the following link-
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/GreekEvidence.html

the australian govt. to soon abandon greek rhetoric follow the link-http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20414/45/

 

Historically speaking, the term Macedonia always referred to an ancient geographic region in Northern Greece. Never did it refer to a modern-ethnicity, or a new Nationality as FYRoM would have us believe. FYRoM as a newly emergent Slavic nation cannot monopolize the Macedonian name on the basis of a whim...the Macedonian Identity has for too long been associated with Greeks and Greece from since antiquity.

There are 2.5 Million Greeks inhabiting real and proper Macedonia, they have fraternal, cultural and linguistic ties, and historic ties to the Macedonian region. Those Greek-Macedonians cannot be asked to simply relinquish their regional Identity just to appease FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs who, on the basis of human-rights, have the right to self-determination, but that does not entitle them to take a Greek-Hellenic name for their new Slavic country, nationaltiy, language and ethnicity...Nobody has the right to underestimate our Intelligence. Macedonian Identity belongs to classical antiquity and Greek heritage, modern Greeks have legitimate rights to it, it belongs in the Greek domain not up for sale or auction.

FYRoM abused the right to self-determination when it decided to take a Greek-Hellenic name for it's Identity.

It was an opportunistic attempt, a preemptive strike at taking from the Greeks, elements from their Hellenic cultural heritage in order to present those elements as something NoN-Greek and Slavic...evidenced in the way FYRoM erected a giant statue of Alexander the Great in the center of Skopje, a place he never visited where they exalt him not as the Greek King of Macedon but as the first Czar of the Slavs!

ALERT! ALERT! ALERT!

GREECE ON BRINK OF DEFAULT AS BOND DEAL FALTERS.

"The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame". (Courtesy of Nick the Greek)

That FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are Slavic speaking South-Slavs is all but given, no serious Slavist would attempt to deny this fact...those who deny their God-given Slavic heritage also deny the Greeks theirs. Only hardened propagandists or severely brainwashed Individuals equate Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity to FYRoM's Slavic speaking South-Slavs. The same propagandists also deny the Slavic incursions of the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula at the 6th Century A.D. preffering instead to cite Theories Ideas and Conjectures postulating autochthonous status for the Slavic speaking peoples of the Haemus.

Lest we forget...Slavist Theories Ideas and Conjectures should not halt, shelve or put on-hold the current version of history pending their academic approval. The current version of history stands, it remains unaltered, the mainstream historical narrative has served academia well over the centuries. The history of the Hameus (Balkan) peninsula has been checked and cross-referenced, proven to be robust, consistant and compatible with other peoples histories. Professional acreditted historian scholars and academics alike completely reject those Slavist Theories Ideas and Conjectures, FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs must learn to respect their views rather than peddling historical revisionism and pseudo-history.

That Australia is home to a Virulent strain of Slavist can be gleaned through their comments here and in other Forums, where they attempt to deny the existence of the Hellenes by
citing the date when Greece established itself as a modern Nation of Hellenes. That Nation states are relatively new political constructs, born from the ashes of defunct Empires is a true statement and in the case of Greece, the Hellenic Nation is actually much older than quite a few European ones that emerged from the upheavals of the 18th - 19th Centuries.

Like the Jews Hebrews Israelis...the Greeks Hellenes Romioi are ancient peoples who's Identities are rooted in classical antiquity... to negate the existence of the Hellenic element from the modern-Greeks would be the equivalent to negating the existence of the Hebrew element from the modern-Israeli, and this appears to be a major tenet of Slavist opinion regarding modern-Greeks.

Slavists, along with their Turanid counterparts took part in a dirty campaign to Character assassinate the modern-Greek...the name dispute between FYRoM - Greece revealed that alliance, working in tandem to bad-mouth Greeks on the Internet and in all available Media platforms and outlets. From since the break-up of that Turko-Israeli strategic-alliance, Israeli global Media assets are no longer available to FYRoM who gained access to them through their Turkic partnership-alliance.

Greeks shall answer to Slavists and to Turanids who attempt to negate the Hellenic element in the modern Hellenic Nation...Greeks shall prove to them that modern-Greeks are the real deal, the native-originals, the Indigenous autochthonous peoples of Haemus peninsula who's host culture, the Hellenic culture is under threat from the Turko-Slavic one.

Turkics and Slavics are the foreign element in the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula...and Greeks can prove it!

@ nick the greek@anonymousnations accept the truth about macedonia, waste your pathetic time on the internet!

First, it was the Slavists who Jizzed FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs, made then crazy with Ideas they were Macedonians related to Aleksandar Veliki...now it is the Turanid Turkistanis who make them crazy with Ideas Turkics and Slavists are brothers.

Any person who sways this way and that way depending on the benefits is not one to be trusted.

Any person, unable to keep to the Orthodox path, the path which truly represents who he is and what he is, should be kept a arms length, at a distance due to his untrustworthy nature!

@lokapos @anonymous @nick the greek 137+ nations of the UN accept the truth about republic of macedonia, 137+ nations, who cares about your worthless, pathetic, uninformed comments on the internet. you are the only biased distorters of the truth, bias distorters of history.
readers interested in the historic truth should follow the following link-
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/GreekEvidence.html

the australian govt. to soon abandon greek rhetoric follow the link-http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20414/45/
  

Terribly annoying, having FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs proclaim themselves Macedonians when there is nothing Macedonian about them...except ofcourse, in the regional-geographic context. They do not speak the language of the original Macedonians and they do not live on real or proper Macedonian lands but insist on calling themselves "ethnic Macedonians" as if to accentuate the term in order to give it prominence. FYRoM's collective Identity cannot mask the fact that, embedded into their so called Macedonian Identity conceals nothing but Serbians and Bulgarians, South-Slavs in the main and in the major part, and Albanians, Turks, Vlachs and Gypsies in the minor and lesser part.

That Serbians and Bulgarians from that mix, had the gall and the front to collectively call themselves "ethnic Macedonians" underestimates our Intelligence. But worse, is when those same Serbians and Bulgarians go on to self-determine as Macedonians in the ethnic-racial, national and cultural linguistic sense. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs really do Insult our Intelligence when they proclaim themselves Macedonians when we know them to be South-Slavs. There is absolutely nothing Macedonian about South-Slavs except for the fact they live on an extended geographic region the latin-Romans named to "Macedonia" for political and for administrative reasons.

That FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs have right to use that Macedonian name in the regional-geographic context, is based soley on the courtesy of the Romans, FYRoM has the latin-Romans to thank for that. It was the Latin-Roman Empire that extended the size and the shape of the original Macedonian region to cover ancient Paeonian lands and ancient Dardanian lands. FYRoM is situated on ancient Paeonian lands and Skopje, the capital city is situated on ancient Dardanian lands, places Alexander the Great never actaually visited or set-foot.

So, FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs really do Insult us when they used their right to self determination to self-determine as ethnic and racial, cultural and linguistic Macedonians when we know them to be Serbians and Bulgarians from South-Slavic stock. There is nothing Macedonian about FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs, at least, not in the Greek sense of that word.

That FYRoM underestimated our collective Intelligence when they erected statues of ancient Greek hero's and named their airports, stadiums and football arenas after ancient-Greeks in order to give their street architecture the semblence, look and feel of something ancient resembling ancient-Macedonia, when it is known by reputable accredited classical scholars and academics alike...FYRoM was never a part of ancient-Macedonia, that ancient and that original Macedonia they have absolutely nothing to do with.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs underestimated the collective Intelligence of world academia...a world body of knowledge that has amassed a wealth of accumulated information regarding Graeco-Roman classical antiquity and they use that information to support and fully endorse the Greek-Hellenic Identity of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.

Can FYRoM really afford to insult this world body of knowledge with it's Silliness!

Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people, their Identity belongs to Greek heritage and only those who represent them in the modern age can use it in backwards compatible fashion. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs do not represent the ancient-Macedonians, they have nothing to do with them. FYRoM's earliest contact to Macedonia and Macedonians can be traced back to the settlement of the Slavonic Tribes and their baptism into the Greek Orthodox religion, whence from there on in...Slavic speaking Orthodox Christians started to share a common culture with the Romioi (Byzantines) Greco-Romans.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs, some of them at least, carry that same stuff Greeks carry in their biological make-up but that does not make them Macedonians, it makes them partially Greek, with partial entitlements to Greek heritage...all they have to do is reclaim it by Re-Hellenizing willingly and voluntarily and retuning back to the fold. The Macedonian name stays in the Greek domain not in the Slavic domain.

Macedonians have always been Greek speakers and Hellenic people...FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs may disrespect that but world academia doesn't. World academia has amassed a wealth of accumulated knowledge on Macedonian and Macedonians. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs may disrespect Greeks but they are damned if they start to disrespect the International academic community.

The name "Macedonia" constitutes an important part of Greek geography, history, culture and Identity...I just can't see the Greeks relinquishing their rights to this ancient and archaic, regional-tribal name anytime soon for the sake of political expediancy in order that FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs get furnished with an Identity they have long covetted from since their Independence.

Every nation has the right to an Identity but No nation has the right to usurp the Identity of another, No nation should steal the history and symbols of another and No nation has the right to underestimate our collective Intelligence. FYRoM as a New country does have the right to self-determination to Identify as they wish and see fit but not by a name which already exists and belongs to your neighbour!

FYRoM naming itself Macedonia and it's disparate peoples "ethnic Macedonians" causes problems and confusions, not least to their own children pupils and student who walk the streets thinking themselves Macedonians and ancient Macedonians as Slavs.

During classical antiquity, the ancient-Macedonian Kingdom of Philip the II, father of Alexander the Great, covered the area of todays central and Northern Greece where it stayed that way until the Roman era, when the Romans came to Greece. Under latin-Roman rule, Macedonia got bigger, the Romans extended it's size and shape to cover Paeonian lands and Dardanian lands where it became an administrative region of the Roman Empire. During the Greco-Roman era, Macedonia came under the jurisdiction of the Byzantine Empire where Macedonia altered it's siza and shape again to become a "Theme," an administrative region which extended into Thrace. During the Ottoman era, Macedonia became the Villayet of Selanik, an administrative district of the Ottoman Empire where it stayed that way until the Greeks regained Macedonia back by conquest, returning Macedonia back into Greek hands once more.

The Turk has always acknowledged that he took Macedonia by conquest, away from the Greek, and the Turk has always acknowledged that he returned Macedonia back to the Greek, when the Greek re-took Macedonia away from the Turk, by conquest.

Today, Macedonia is safely back in Greek hands once more, that is to say, the original ancient part of Macedonia before the latin-Romans extended it and the Greco-Romans shifted it...the original ancient and biblical Macedonia has returned full circle back to the Greeks where it belongs.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs claiming to be "ethnic Macedonians" with ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic connections back to Alexander the Great flies in the face of what is actually known about them. The overwhelming evidence to date, places the ancient-Macedonians into the Greek domain, in with the Greek-Hellenic collective of peoples...making FYRoM out to be a lier and a cultural thief, a shameless opportunist, taking from the Greeks elements from their Hellenic cultural heritage, things which do not belong and have never belonged to the South-Slavs.

So they erect statues of Alexander the Great in places where he never visited or set-foot, and they name their airports, highways, stadiums and sports arenas after ancient-Greek hero's in order to give the impression they have cultural and historic links to the ancient-Macedonians when the very lands they reside on were never part of the ancient-Macedonian Kingdom nor were they part of the Greco-Macedonian Empire...so why do they do these things when there is nothing Macedonian about them ???

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs do these things because they were taught to hate the Greeks and taught to fear Hellenism, but that hate and that fear pales in comparison, it does not compare one iota to the resentment they harbour against the West, for they hold the West responsible for creating the Greeks in the first place, created in order to cheat the Slav from his real true history and heritage, which they equate to Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity. In their sick and twisted minds, the ancient Macedonians become proto-Slavs and Aleksandar Veliki the first Czar of the Slavs!

Greeks want their cultural-heritage back, all of it, we want it back, free from Slavist revisionism, distortions and corruptions...we have that right to enjoy our cultural heritage the way it is currently Illustrated and depicted in the mainstream historical narrative. Nobody has the right to underestimate our collective Intelligence!

137+ nations of the UN accept the truth about republic of macedonia, 137+ nations, who cares about your worthless, pathetic, uninformed comments on the internet. you are biased distorters of the truth, bias distorters of history.
readers interested in the historic truth should follow the following link-
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/GreekEvidence.html

the australian govt. to soon abandon greek rhetoric follow the link-http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20414/45/ 

therefore, you do not deny the legitimacy of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia a former member of the Socialist Federation of Jugoslavia maintaining its existing name, corrected to the Republic of Macedonia.you do not deny that Macedonia was partitioned in 1913 according to the Treaty of Bucharest.you do not deny that the greek government issued a 4 drachma postage stamp in 1930, the stamp represented greek territory in 1830, then new acquired territory to 1930 (incl. macedonia and thrace).

Nick is right.

The way the ancients defined the Greek-Hellenic Nation were thus: As a peoples in common kinship, in blood and in speech. A peoples in common religious belief who made common sacrifices to the shrines of their gods.

The Hellenic Nation subdivided into >230 known ancient-groups, tribes and Kingdoms which together, collectively formed the ancient-Hellenes from antiquity. In that number were the ancient-Macedonians, they were the northernmost Greeks whos' Kingdom was responsible for unifying the fractious Greeks into one unified Hellenic Nation, under Macedonian hegemony.

Greeks defined themselves as peoples of the same speech and of the same genus...genus in this case may equate to tribe, a subdivision of Nation.

Today, if one is derived from Greeks...Born in Greece, or born outside the Hellenic homelands but from Greek maternal or paternal parentage, this would entitle one to enjoy the history and heritage of the Greeks in it's full glory. If one learned through the process of assimilation, to walk like a Greek and talk like a Greek, and was considered Greek by Greeks themselves, then one would be entitled to enjoy the history and heritage of the Greeks in all of it's glory.

That blood and Dna does not relate to ethnicity, the Greeks learned a long long time ago...from since the Hellenization process Hellenized NoN-Greeks.

In today's modern and complicated world where Nations are grouped together with other Nations, to form families of Nations...the blood and Dna of modern-peoples may not reflect faithfully, their ethnic pride or National feelings.

That (de-Hellenized) Greeks, or partial Greeks could be nuturing ethnic pride and National feelings in Nations that harbour hostile intent towards Greece and the Greek-Hellenic peoples is factual and a glimpse into the realities of the Balkans.

That ancient Greeks mentioned blood in their definition of Nation suggested exclusion but this is not entirely true, as we know from the historical record the ancient Greeks did include NoN-Greek blood into their fold, when they colonized, interbred and interacted with NoN-Greeks.

Peoples of the same speech and of the same genus...do what Greeks do, walk like them and talk like them, adopt Hellenism and if your good at it and they like you, you too could enjoy the history and heritage of the Greeks in it's full glory!

Re-Hellenization remains the only way of sharing in the history and heritage of the Greeks.

i believe nick.

Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage...only Greeks have have recognized fraternal, geographic, cultural, linguistic and historic ties to the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.

Alexander the Great was an ancient Greek hero, the Greek-Hellenic King of Macedon, responsible for spreading Hellenism, the Greek-Hellenic language knowledge and culture to the farthestmost regions of the then known ancient world.
 
FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are Not the Macedonians they think they are or were told they are!

To be a bona-fide Macedonian, .one needs to have that Hellenic Ingrediant...without it, you are Not Macedonian, it's as simple as that! 

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs, a significant number of them are closely related to the Bulgarians...I mean, ethnically, linguistically, culturally and historically, it is a fact, but that does not detract or exclude them carrying Greek elements in their biological make-up. From since the settlement of the Slavic and Bulgar Tribes into the Byzantine Empire, cross fertilization ((by force)(by free will)) occured, people who mixed with Slavs became Slavic, people who mixed with Bulgars became Bulgarian and people who mixed with Greeks became Greek-Hellenic.

The Balkans became a mixed-up place...ethnic-racial fault lines became blured by religion. Orthodox Christians included Greek speakers and Slavic speakers, all of them afilliated to the patriarchate of Constantinople, until Russia decided to resurrect Bulgaria as an Independent Nation in the Balkans.

From since the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Common peoples of the Balkans were segregated and seperated along Exarchate and Patriarchate lines where Slavic speakers were alotted into the Bulgarian camp and Greek speakers into the Patriarchate camp.

Peoples that were bi-lingual had to make stark choices, they had to chose either the Slavic path or the Greek path...FYRoM's great grand-fathers chose the Slavic path and the Bulgarian Exarchate.

Had the Russians Not revived Bulgaria...the common peoples of the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula would have stayed loyal to the Patriarchate of Constantinople, they would have stayed bi-lingual and gone on to develop a Greco-Slavic culture based on Orthodox Byzantine culture and tradition.

The peoples of FYRoM would have had the best of both worlds...drawing on the best from their Slavic heritage in addition to drawing on the best from the Hellenic heritage they could have had, but missed out on.

To attempt now, a preemptive strike at usurping Greek names, symbols and the heraldry and regalia of Byzantium, from a solidly Slavist backround comes across as sheer and wanton, unrestrained opportunism...attempting to take from the Greeks, elements from their Hellenic cultural heritage in order to present it to the outside world as Slavic.

If FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs want Greek things, they should go Greek and Re-Hellenize...ReHellenization remains the only way of sharing in the history and heritage of the Greeks!

i think nick the greek is right

The ancient-Macedonians Greek-Hellenic Identity was evidenced in their customs culture and traditions, in their place names where the toponyms could only have been spawned from the Greek-Hellenic language. The etymologies of the people names were all Greek, their religion was the same Greek one, and their calender months were all Greek, plus, Macedonians participated in the Olympic games where their names were recorded for posterity, and above all else, the ancient-Macedonians self-determined as Greek speaking Hellenic people from Northern Greece, they used their self-determination right to self-determine as Greeks and this must be respected.

Ancient-Macedonia was a Greek Kingdom peopled by Greeks from Macedonia in the same manner Ancient-Sparta was a Greek Kingdom peopled by Greeks from Sparta...FYRoM does not have the right to underestimate our intelligence!

FYRoM's Slavic speaking ex-Yugoslavs insist on Identifying as ethnic and racial Macedonians, as one-people with one-language in one-nation of Macedonians...which is a gross distortion of the truth. In reality, FYRoM is a Balkan salad of ethnicities who's Macedonian Identity could only ever be attributed to a regional Identity, a geographic term, not ethnic or racial term, or cultural or linguistic term.

Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people, this is how they self-determined in the mainstream historical narrative and FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs do not have the right to distort or corrupt that fact...in-fact, FYRoM does not have the right to insult our intelligence!

FYRoM:The Neighbour From Hell...

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs have serious problems with their Identity, they have Church and religion problems with the Church of Serbia, territorial problems with the Albanians, language problems with the Bulgarians and name problems with Greece, over the correct use of the Macedonian name, simply put...Greece does not want the Slavs of FYRoM to use the Macedonian name for their new Slavic country, nationality, language and ethnicity when all of those Identity factors are known to be Greek-Hellenic. The Greek-Hellenic peoples are ethnically, culturally, linguistically and geographically far more closer to the ancient-Macedonians than FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs could ever be.

People have the right to name themselves as they wish or as they see fit, but ethics and morals come into play if they intend on abusing that right to name themselves after an existing name, a name which is known to belong to your neighbour. FYRoM wants to call itself Republic of Macedonia and expects the rest of the world to respect that decision when in reality FYRoM has violated the basic principles of common decency and understanding. When one takes into account, that for the past 3000 years, the Northernmost region of Greece has been called Macedonia...awarding FYRoM, a new Slavic country, the same name as that of the neighboring province of Greece, poses a dilemma for the International community!

FYRoM excercized it's right of self-determination freely, to self-determine as a Nation of Macedonians in the ethnic-racial sense and in the cultural-linguistic sense when this Identity does not bode well with what is known them, about FYRoM and it's disparate peoples...they are South-Slavs, and the Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage, this is the dilemma facing the International community.

FYRoM does have the right to self-determine they way it wishes but that means chose a different name from that of your nearest neighbour...FYRoM does not have the right to underestimate our collective Intelligence.

137+ nations of the UN accept the truth about republic of macedonia, 137+ nations, who cares about your worthless, pathetic, uninformed comments on the internet. you are biased distorters of the truth, bias distorters of history.
macedonia will be accepted into the EU and macedonia will be accepted into NATO, just count the days. 

the hellenic people that you speak of have not occupied macedonia from at least the 6th century AD, therefore do not distort facts. what you are saying is a nonsense. 

Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people. Hard Northern-Greeks who have never strayed from Hellenism. Macedonians stayed true and loyal to the Hellenic cause. Macedonians never swapped, changed-sides, loyalties, affiliations or allegiances, they were born Greek more than Three Millenia ago, and they have stayed Greek up till today...respect to the Macedonians.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs disrespect all of the above...they mock Macedonians and denigrate Hellenism, and they do it in the full gaze of the modern-Greeks who are forced to watch them take Macedonian things and rubbish them. They use Turanid and Slavist revisionism and pseudo-historical propaganda to take from the Greeks, elements from their Hellenic cultural heritage and present them to the outside world as something NoN-Greek and uniquely their own.

Macedonians never strayed, never changed and never altered their loyalty, their affiliation or their allegiance towards Hellenism and the Hellenic path...FYRoM seeking to alter these historical facts harbours something deep-seated against the Greeks and Hellenism, festering with malice and wanting to show the Greeks just how much damage they can inflict on the modern-Greek National Character.

That bad-blood exists between FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs and Greeks, is a true statement to make...there is a history of wrong-doings from one-side to the other side and visa-versa!

FYRoM's much vaunted Macedonian Identity need not have involved the ancient-Macedonians...FYRoM's South-Slavs could have kept that Macedonian Identity without involving Alexander the Great, simply by placing something in front of their name which clearly distinguishes them from the Hellenic Identity of the ancient-Macedonians from classical antiquity.

FYRoM's actions for two decades, have been consistant with wanting to show the modern-Greeks in bad-light, from bad-mouthing them to ridiculing them, to denigrating them and their Hellenic culture. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs do these things because they can, because they were awarded the Macedonian name back in 2004 by that U.S. administration of GW Bush who was ill-advised to recognize FYRoM as RoM in order to spite the maverick Greeks for their support of Serbia!

When those advisors advised GW Bush to recognize FYRoM as RoM, they committed a political blunder which has gone down in recorded history as such...their names shall always be associated with that ((intentional)(unintentional)) Mistake! It took classicist historians to put politicians in their place. Historian scholars and academics alike value their profession above and beyond the virtues of political expediancy...politicians had to back away from supporting the FYRoM cause which had historical revisionism and historical propaganda as the two main pillars supporting it's very existence. Politicians had to back-away or they would have risked having their integrity and credibility questioned!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are Not Macedonians...at least, Not in the Greek sense of that word. Before they became Macedonians they were Southern-Serbs and before that, they were Bulgarians. Before they bacame Orthodox Christians they were Atheist Communists and before that, they were Exarchist Bulgarians. Before they were Exarchist Bulgarians, at least some of them anyway, were Patriarchists loyal to the Patriarch of Constantinople. Before they spoke their newly developed so called Macedonian language, they spoke Bulgarian and before that, Bulgarian again.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are South-Slavs beyond a shadow of doubt...there was No need for them to have involved Alexander the Great or the ancient-Macedonians into their National history. They could have used their universal right to self-determination properly, and self-determined as New-Macedonians or Upper-Macedonians or Grno-Macedonians or any-Macedonians, but instead, they opted to provoke the Greeks and by extension the International academic community because that provocation brought to the fore FYRoM's pre-planned Slavist historical revisionism and pseuodo-historical propaganda, which, from the out-set had Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity scripted into FYRoM's ethno-genesis story as Slavic speakers and spawned from the Slavic race. Classicist historian scholars were not going to sit and watch FYRoM's Slavist historical revisionism ingress into the mainstream historical narrative so they took action and from the day they banded together to defend and protect the verity of the mainstream historical narrative...FYRoM found itself dejected, abandoned and alone, shoved up a siding and kept at arms length, at a distance until it respects more the Macedonians Greek-Hellenic Identity, the same Identity which has never strayed, altered or changed from the Hellenic original.

Respect to the Macedonians who continue to Vaunt their Hellenic Macedonian Identity in the face of excruciating Slavist revisionism and historical propaganda which set-out to de-Hellenize Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians in order to make them Slavic. I say respect the Macedonians, for they have walked a Million Miles and Never strayed from the Hellenic Path!

Damn FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs for rubbishing Greeks and denigrating their Hellenic culture...Damn every single-one of them

http://slavomirhorak.euweb.cz/makedonie_historie.htm

The Complete Pseudo-History of FYRoM

FYRoM was Never Alone in Formulating a Pseudo-Historical Narrative converting Slavs into ancient-Macedonians.

When FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs express themselves as "ethnic" Macedonians, who are native and original to the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula...do they express that ethnic-pride more than or less so, than todays modern-Greeks who also express themselves as Macedonians but only in the regional context because for Greeks, "Macedonia(n)" is a geographic term attributed to Northern-Greeks. For Greeks, the "ethnic" tag has been wrongly applied to FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs because Macedonian ethnicity does not exist, it would be on par with a Texan from the U.S. claiming "ethnic-Texan" status or a Bavarian from Germany claiming "ethnic Bavarian" status, the absurdity is real and in your face absurd!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs knowingly and intentionally decided to apply themselves a Macedonian Identity in the full knowledge that Identity belongs to Greek heritage...but worse than this, they made that Identity an ethnic one and a racial one and a cultural-linguistic one, in-fact, they now claim to be a Nation of Macedonians, and boldly claim the history and heritage of Macedonia from it's earliest history to the present, even though they have No real, earthly or natural connections to the lands or to the peoples of Macedonia proper.

FYRoM isults Greeks by de-Hellenizing Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity, suggesting in quasi-official documentation they were not Greeks but something akin to Slavic speakers, like themselves. For FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs, they were taught from a very early age to think of themselves as Macedonians and to think of ancient-Macedonians as Slavs...their scripturs are strewn all-over the Media world where they litter the internet with historical revisionism and pseudo-history.

FYRoM isults Greeks and has done so for two-decades...they insult the academic community also, by disrespecting historian scholars and academics alike who have staked their professional carears on the dissemination of Graeco-Roman classical antiquity, in prestigious and reputable learning institutions, renown for their professionalism and expertise through-out the world on matters Macedonian.

I find it extraordinary that FYRoM has been permitted for two decades, to ridicule Greeks and denigrate Helenism in the way that they do...they erect statues of Alexander the Great in places he never visited or set-foot, they name their streets and highways after Greek names, they name their sports stadiums and arenas after Greek hero's and their airports also. Greeks would normally cheer at a foreign country doing these things to honour ancient-Greeks but FYRoM does it for ulterior motives, they do it to see the Greeks ridiculed and himliated and Hellenism, their culture denigrated, they have spent their lives doing it because they feel they owe the Greeks something for past wrong-doings dating back to the Balkans Wars when the Greeks
took from the Turk, their ancient-Macedonians lands.

Greeks lost Macedonia by conquest, at various intervals in the past, historical periods which have been properly recorded, but they have always regained Macedonia back by conquest, and now, Macedonia is back in Greek hands where it belongs and the Greeks aim to defend it and protect it from any external or internal threats. FYRoM's Afrocentric Induced, Turanid Influenced, Slavist Indoctrinated pseudo-scriptures threaten to destabilize the southern Balkans, where Turanids and Slavists have been seen to be working in tandem in order to undermine the regions ethno-racial balance. FYRoM's disparate peoples can double their number, their populace could rise exponentially to an alarming figure if Turanids and Slavists had their way.

That a country in the Central Balkans could pose a threat to the region by upsetting the ethnic-racial balance and social cohesion of an area far outside of it's own National boundaries is very real. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs see Macedonians not just in themselves but in Musulmen from Turkey and beyond...bring them all-together under one Catylist Identity, the Macedonian Identity, Turanid and Slavist propagandist have been working hard to establish and you bring trouble to the Balkans. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs, if awarded the Macedonian Identity, in or out of Western economic or security structures shall make Macedonians out all those who want to self-determine as such, regardless of their religion or ethnic-backround, for Slavs traverse all of these things.

Turanid propaganda is similar to Slavist propaganda...both want to oust the host-culture from the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula, the place which spawned Hellenism. Turanids and Slavists work hard to bring together TurkoSlavic peoples under one Catylist Identity, the Macedonian Identity, for which they have scripted an ethno-genesis story which links Turkics to ancient-Trojans and Slavics to ancient-Macedonians...at the expense and exclusion of the Greeks who's host culture they attempt to erase in favour of their own very unique TurkoSlavic one.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs claim to be native and original, indigenous and autochthonous peoples to the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula, then they spoil it by claiming to be Macedonians. If they are native originals to the Haemus, that would make them Paeonians...not Macedonians. FYRoM sits on ancient-Paeonian lands where Paeonians dwelt but they claim to be indigenous Macedonians instead. Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people, and we know from the mainstream historical narrative, Paeonians were not Greeks, they spoke their own language and fought on the side of the Trojans according to Homer.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs searching for an Identity rooted in classical antiquity are better-off claiming the Paeonian Identity because it is there and available, whereas the Macedonian Identity they covet is already taken, the Greeks have been using that Identity in the regional-geographic context from since Millenia.

If the PCT...Paleolithic Continuity Theory is be believed, then FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not Macedonians at all, but rather Slavic speaking Paeonians. Even here, a Theory which was much touted by themselves, which made their Slavic language native and indigenous to the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula does not make them Macedonians but Paeonians instead.

Macedonians were known to have spoken the Centum Hellenic language in antiquity, which distances FYRoM's claims to the Macedonian Identity on the basis of linguistics...their Slavic language belongs to the Satem group of Indo-European languages and if the PCT Theory is to be believed, Macedonian cannot be the language of FYRoM because FYRoM's langauge is a Satem Slavic language and Macedonian was known to be Hellenic which belongs to the Centum group of Indo-European languages.

Every which-way you look at it, the more we delve into FYRoM's much Vaunted Macedonian Identity, we find-out that it is Not Macedonian at all, but rather Paeonian. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs, if indigenous and autochthonous to the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula, are closer to the ancient-Paeonians on the basis of geography at least, and because we know next to nothing about the ancient-Paeonian language, who's to say it wansn't Slavic and similar to FYRoM's language!

FYRoM's Slavist revisionist pseudo-historians tried so hard to link them to classical antiquity, looking at just the Macedonian Identity, when all along, the Paeonian Identity was there for the taking and just next door to the Macedonian Identity the Greeks have been using from since the forming of the Hellenic tribes.

FYRoM must re-name itself "Republic of Paeonia" on the basis of geographic and historical verity and on the basis of the PCT Theory, should it ever attain academic approval. Failing that, the only other option for FYRoM is to Re-Hellenize, if they want to keep the Macedonian Identity.

Re-Hellenization remains the only way of sharing in the history and heritage of the Greeks.

The Haemus (Balkan) peninsula is the place where Hellenism was spawned, the Hellenic culture, the precursor to Western culture...where the human experience has been recorded for Millenia, where folk memories are long and where the natives bear grudges against other natives or just others in general. The Hellenic culture was the host indigenous culture of the Haemus, but that status is being habitually weakened and undermined by a new hybrid foreign culture, a TurkoSlavic culture which threatens to oust the Hellenic one from it's own homelands.

FYRoM uses it's own state apparatus to promote anti-Hellenic propaganda and historical revisionism...where young Slavic children are taught to hate Greeks and fear Hellenism, where Slavist rogue scholars teach young Slavic children to think of themselves as Macedonians and to think of ancient-Macedonians as Slavs. King Philip of Macedon and his son Alexander the Great become Slavic hero's even though the Slavic language and culture appeared in the Haemus at the top-end of the 6th Century A.D. a Millennium after the death of Alexander the Great.

Greece has valid arguments over FYRoM's inappropriate use of the Macedonian name...Macedonia refers to the historic region of Northern-Greece. Greeks boast fraternal, geographic, cultural, linguistic and historic ties to the region, ties which cannot easily be ignored, but that hasn't stopped FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs from wanting to usurp that name and it's Identity for their new Slavic country, nationality, language and ethnicity, Identity factors which do not bode well with what is known about them, that they are Slavic speaking South-Slavs who's ancestors settled the Greco-Roman world during the 6th Century A.D.

Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people, FYRoM cannot use this Identity in the ethnic-racial sense or cultural-linguistic because it belongs to Greek heritage...FYRoM has rights, but it does not have the right to take us for fools by underestimating our collective intelligence!

Macedonia:Whats in a Name Anyway......

The name dispute between FYRoM - Greece is quite petty according to some observers who point the finger at Greece for keeping a small and impoverished, newly established Slavic country from joyning the ranks of the International community under it's freely chosen self-determined name of Republic of Macedonia.

Greece argues with some impressive academic backing, that the Macedonian Identity belongs to Greeks heritage, and that only Greeks have fraternal, geographic, cultural, linguistic and historic ties to that name. Greece has gone as far as to accept FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs usage of the Macedonian name but Not in the ethnic sense, or racial sense, or Nationality sense, or cultural-linguistic sense, when it is known that these Identity factors are all Greek-Hellenic.

Whats in a name anyway, some observers argue...it's just a name, but then, so is: Londonderry...or is it Derry ???

Whats in a name indeed: Taiwan is just a name...or is it Chinese Taipei ???

It's just a name right: The Falklands is just a name...or is it Las Malvinas ???

Petty arguing over a name isn't it: The Persian Gulf...or the Arabian Gulf, which one would you go for ???

If FYRoM was awarded the Macedonian name in the ethnic-racial context and in the cultural-linguistic contex, that decision would make a person born in Skopje...Macedonian. Now, does that mean, that a person born in real and proper Macedonia, in Northern Greece, is not allowed to be called Macedonian anymore ???

Sure, the name dispute is petty for some...until that is, it is your name that is being used without your consent, and in ways which undermine your fraternal links to it and your historic rights to it. A dispute over a name may seem petty, trivial, ridiculous and unimportant, but only to the ignorant because only ignorance gives way to expediancy.

FYRoM attempts to usurp the Macedonian name in order to apply it to Slavic speaking peoples who's Serbo-Bulgarian forebears did not know this name when they first settled the Greco-Roman world at the top-end of the 6th Century A.D. FYRoM wantonly appropriates ancient-Macedonian history and apply's the Macedonian name to it's hybrid mixed Serbo-Bulgarian language and to the Paeonian lands it sits on.

Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people...one day, all Slavic children from FYRoM shall respect that, the day they learn to respect themselves and their Slavic heritage.

Macedonia:Cultural and Biological Inheritance...

Todays Greeks can trace their heritage back directly to the Greco-Roman Byzantines, who traced their heritage back to the Hellenes, the Hellenes traced their heritage back to the proto-Greek tribes, the Myceneans. Modern-Greeks boast fraternal, geographic, cultural, linguistic and historic ties, binding ties, which connect them back to their ancestral forebears. Those chain-links, although fragmented are still discernable, they have a beginning and an end, and they link modern-Greeks to the previous-Greeks in backwards compatible fashion. Three tiers of heritage,(i) Greco-Roman,(ii)Greek-Hellenic ,(iii) proto-Greek Mycenean. The thread of continuity, the Catalyst which binds modern-Greeks to previous Greeks is the Hellenic element. The transfer of inheritance, both cultural and biological, passed-on quite naturally from one generation seemlessly to the next generation, hence the closeness the modern-Greek feels to his-her forebears and ancestral base.

FYRoM's historical-revisionism is an affront to Classicist scholars, a major insult to their profession. Historians of Graeco-Roman classical antiquity value their profession, enough to warrant them banding together in order to confront FYRoM's pseudo-historical narrative. Academia has noticed the attempts by those Afrocentric-Induced, Turanid-Influenced Slavists from FYRoM, to de-Hellenize Macedonians from the rest of the Greeks, for them, I mean, the academic-scholarly community, it is an affront to their profession and for the Greeks, it is a major insult, for they consider the Macedonian Identity to belong to Greek heritage...with impressive backing from academia.

Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage...only Greeks connect to that Identity fraternally, geographically, culturally, linguistically and historically!

FYRoM treats Hellenism with disdain and modern-Greeks with contempt. FYRoM's Slavists took academia for fools when they underestimated the International academic communities collective Intelligence on Macedonian matters. Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people, this is what is known about Macedonians...Greeks to the core!

FYRoM started something toxic the day they opted to self-determine after a Greek-Hellenic name in the ethnic and racial sense and in the cultural-linguistic sense, when it is known that all of these Identity factors are all Greek-Hellenic.

the vulgarity is the ethnic cleansing and genocide your countrymen performed at the start of this century, this proved that you are nothing but a disgraceful and barbaric race that has neither association with the byzantine nor alexander of macedonia.  

For 67 years now...from since 1945 in the old-Yugoslavia, a lie was being spread from there to the whole of the Slavic world, that there existed a Macedonian language which was spoken by a Macedonian peoples that lived in the Sixth Socialist Republic of the Yugoslav federation called Macedonia. The lie was kept within the confines of that Yugoslav federation, where historical revisionism was promulgated in Slavists schools which taught a version of Graeco-Roman classical history considered false and misleading. The power of Communist era propaganda coupled with Slavist Ideology made Macedonians out of South-Slavs.
That Macedonians were South-Slavs to begin with is a lie, that Macedonians had Slavic origins is an acute lie, and that lie spread through-out Slavdom, that within it's fold existed Macedonians.

Slavist philologists in Communist ruled Yugoslavia Serbianized the Bulgarian language and Christened it Macedonian language in the autumn of 1944. A year later in 1945, Slavist mind-architects carved-out a piece of South-Serbia and Christened it Socialist Republic of Macedonia. A year after this in 1946, those same Slavists meddled in the Greek Civil War that just started. Communist insurgents from Yugoslavia witnessed Serbian and Bulgarian South-Slavs band together, they crossed-over into Greek territory to aid the Greek Communists overthrow the Royalists, who governed Greece.

Slavists...whether they be Imperial, Pan, Communist or Free-Marketeer in Ideology, have always schemed and plotted to take Macedonia and Thrace away from the Greeks in order to place those regions into the Slavic camp. Greeks have always resisted and thwarted those attempts right up till today.

In reality, the Macedonian Identity, language and culture have always been Greek-Hellenic and Greece is well versed in protecting those Identity factors from as far back as 1925, when at the League of Nations Greece signed the treaty of Serves on 10th August 1920. According to the conditions of that Treaty, under Articles 7 - 8 - 9 the Greek government was obliged to undertake measures to protect the Slavic minorities in Greece, they specifically stated free use of languages and education. In March 1925, the League of Nations chased Greece to fulfill its obligations and by May 1925, an elementary school text-book was published in the Macedonski language but in the Greek alphabet, it was known as the Abecedar.

The Abecedar reading text-book was to be used by Greek born Slavic speaking children in schools the Greeks were meant to have provided but did not, based on the heated reactions from both Serbia and Bulgaria. Both were caught off-guard and by surprise, and both were seething when they found-out the Abecedar text-book was not printed in the Serbian language or Bulgarian language,for both Serbia and Bulgaria considered the Slavic speaking peoples of Northern Greece as Serbians and Bulgarians respectively.

1...Serbia immediately retaliated and threatend to break-off its treaty of Alliance with the Hellenic Republic and commence negotiations with Bulgaria for the stealthy division of Aegean-Macedonia.

2...Bulgaria also protested, citing the fact that they too signed an Accord with Greece which ensured the recognition of those Slavic speakers of Northern Greece as Bulgarians.

What occured next was truly a rare example of intrigue and Greek political cunning...the Greek representative at the League of Nations at the time was Vasilis Dendramis, and he responded by defending the Makedonski language as being neither Serbian nor Bulgarian but an Independent Slavic language. He listed various linguistic maps as evidence to support his claim of the existence of an Independent Makedonski language. The high ranking Greek official representing the Greek State at the League of Nations not only recognized the existance of the Makedonci Identity, he openly defended it and supported it.

Both the Serbs and the Bulgars objected, and together with internal political opposition in Greece, these factors, whether they were conjured-up or naturally permitted to occur prevented the Abecedar text-book from ever reaching the Slavic speaking Makedonci children it was originally meant for. After this episode...all the Abecedar text-books were destroyed, and the whole event was recorded to serv as a reminder to future Greek governments of the uniqueness of the Makedonci as a separate National entity.

As far back as the year 1925...the Greeks were advocating the existence of a unique Makedonci Identity in Northern Greece and were prepared to print text-books for them and build schools for them but for Serbian and Bulgarian objections. Both Serbs and Bulgars threatened retaliatory actions against Greece if Greece proceeded with such actions!

Greek rhetoric over Macedonia has deaf audience.
Greece has screwed European Union out of hundreds of billions of euros and forced private bondholders to take over hundred billion euros in losses. Who's listening to Greece now?

One day when Greeks get over their inferiority complex toward Macedonians they will act like a "normal" people.

Well the page is turning and the world is siding with Macedonia.

you support the greek view irrespective of 500 year ottoman occupation in the balkan because you are a half wit, for 500 year illyria, kossova monastir and solunica were occupied by slavs. these vilayets partially covered what the modern world of that time knew as macedonia, macedonia was predominantly occupied by slavs refer to the 1910 encyclopaedia britannica online. how is it possible for you to support greece, when the greek position is so clearly untenable. 

their ancient history is irrelevant, the greeks have had no sovereignty for at least the previous 1400 year, if not for the previous 2500 year. the issue is sovereign rights and not ancient history.

For Greeks, the name "Macedonia" is the name of their country’s largest region, it covers most of the territory that constituted the ancient-Kingdom of Macedonia which was ruled over by Alexander the Great. It's cultural-linguistic Identity belongs to Greek heritage.
 

@ nigel harlington- grove
if the name macedonia was so important to greece, why did they rename the 'northern province' that they acquired the result of the 'treaty of bucharest (1913)', macedonia only in 1988 after the disbanding of SFR Jugoslavia and the emergence of the socialist republic of macedonia. why during the treaty of berlin 1878, did not greece mention annexing both macedonian and thessaly to its territory. the answer is simple macedonia had never been a part of greece.  

@ nick the greekyou talk absolute garbage, what you say is just plain swivel, obviously you cann't back- up anything that you say. why don't you look- up the 1910 encyclopaedia britannica online and discover for yourself under the reference macedonia, that macedonia was predominantly occupied by slavs and that the capital of macedonia was solun. look- up the 'assassins of solunica' 28/04 to 01/05/1903 to discover that the assassins were from the bulgarian mens high school of solunica. there was nothing greek in macedonia or solunica. they bombed the ottoman bank in solun, they bombed the ship guadalquivir a french ship in the harbour, they bombed and shut- off all electricity and water to the city and bombed the alhabra cafe.
your postings are from fair land and not from the real world!
   

FYRoM's diaspora communities, especially the Canadian contingent were instrumental in setting the conditions under which their home country was to conduct itself on the world stage, in the presence of global politicians and world diplomats. FYRoM was to take on the role of the underdog and Greece the aggressor. FYRoM touted for sympathy and support for it's cause and these were freely issued in abundance. FYRoM, initially had backing and sponsorship coupled with much sympathy and support for it's cause, which was to join the West and integrate into the Euro-Atlantic economic and security structures of the E.U. and Nato. FYRoM said all the right things and did all the right things in front of Western political and diplomatic audiances but behind the scenes...FYRoM did what it was originally conceived to do. FYRoM was conceived in the old-Yugoslavia under Communism, during the rule of Comrade Tito...a Croat.

Croatians South-Slavs are distanced from Serbians and Bulgarians by geography and religion, which may seem irrelevent details but they are significant points to consider in the whole scheme of things. Had he been a Serb or a Bulgar, the dynamics would have altered and the turn-out may not have been the same. Comrade Tito took lands from the Serbs and awarded them to a new Socialist Republic he set-up in 1945. Comrade Tito created a 6th Autonomous (Socialist) Republic and named it The Peoples Socialist Republic of Macedonia to compliment a decision that was taken a year earlier to establish a Macedonian language.

FYRoM was in the minds of Slavists from since the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate...they wanted to make Macedonians out of South-Slavs and the conditions for doing so correlated best under the YugoSlav federation, governed under strict authoritrian principles, under a dictatorial regime which closed itself off from the out-side world. Under these conditions and under the leadership of a Croat...Comrade Tito created a language and a country from within the confines of the YugoSlav federation and applied the Macedonian name to both of them. Slavists used a Croat to make Macedonians out of Serbians and Bulgarians, all of them South-Slavs and Macedonian Nothing.

When FYRoM did what it was conceived to do...Western politicians pulled the plug!

FYRoM was never interested in joining the West, neither it's economic nor it's security structures, FYRoM just said and did all the right things in the presence of Western political and diplomatic audiances to get recognition of the Macedonian name for it's country name, nationality, language and ethnicity, for all of these elements make Serbians and Bulgarians "Macedonian" in the ethnic and racial sense, and in the cultural-linguistic sense. It took Slavists to come up with the Idea, It took a Croat to lay the foundations and it took alot of gall and alot of front to use Western principles, freedoms and human-rights to take the Macedonian name away from the Greeks.

Greeks cannot permit South-Slavs to adopt or usurp the Macedonian name in the ethnic-racial, National and cultural-linguistic context when these Identity factors are all Greek-Hellenic. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage...South-Slavic peoples wanting to use that name should respect that!

Alexander the Great had no ties with Slavonic peoples or the Slavic world. During his reign, there were no Slavs in the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula. Slavs and their language did not enter the Balkan space until almost a Millenia after his death. Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity were a Greek-Hellenic peoples on the basis of their own ethno-genesis story and self-determination right...and on the basis of religion, language, culture, and traditions. Alexander the Great died in the year 323 B.C. His generals divided the empire and with the rise of Rome, the latin-Roman armies engaged the Macedonians in a series of wars which lasted up until 168 B.C. The Greek Kingdom of Macedonia became a Roman province officially, in 148 B.C.

At this juncture, the original authentic Macedonia disappears into obscurity, courtesy of the latin-Romans who replaced it with a bigger more enlarged geographic space which encompassed Paeonian lands and Dardanian lands. From here onwards, we have a clear disconnect, a divide which sperates original Macedonia from Roman era Macedonia. In 395 A.D. the Roman Empire split and Macedonia became part of the Eastern Greco-Roman Empire. These are the lands FYRoM's forebears settled when they entered the Greco-Roman world at the top-end of the 6th Century A.D. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are completely disconnected from the original authentic lands of Macedonia by geography and by a time continuum spanning almost a Millenia...there is no-way to connect or relate them, either to the ancient-peoples or to the ancient-lands of Macedonia proper.

This is the dilemma facing FYRoM...how to consolidate their modern-Slavic attributes with the known, ancient-Greek attributes of the original authentic Macedonians from classical antiquity.

When Slavist mind-architects told FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs they were the amalgamation of all the peoples, both old and new that settled on Macedonian soil...what they were really and in-fact saying, was this: FYRoM's Slavic forebears intermingled, merged and assimilated with Greco-Romans, not ancient-Macedonians because at the 6th Century A.D. there was No ancient-Macedonians, nor was there any ancient-Spartans or ancient-Athenians, for all of those ancient Identities merged into just one supranational Identity called "Romioi" or "Rimyani" to the Slavophone, meaning Roman!

Todays Greeks are the closest modern-peoples that connect to the ancient-Macedonians in backwards compatible fashion. The path of least resistance flows through the modern Greeks. Todays Greeks can boast fraternal, geographic, cultural, linguistic and historic ties to the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity...FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs can boast NoN of these things.

To our Northern Slavic speaking Macedonian neighbours I say this: Distinguish yourselves dudes, Go tell the world you are Macedonians but Not in the Greek sense of that word and show some respect to the Greco-Macedonians who Walked a Million Miles and Never strayed from the Hellenic Path.

Funny how Nick the Greek wants to keep lecturing Macedonia (schoolyard bully). Perhaps when Greece gets its economic house in order, implements massive structural reforms, eliminates corruption and bureaucracy, begins to collect taxes, develops into a modern, enlightened, progressive society, recognizes minorities and grants them full civil rights, will the world begin to take Greece seriously.
Greece is bankrupt and is no longer a power-broker in the Balkans. Money talks. Greece has no money. I'll repeat: Money talks. Greece has no money. Look at how the Turks are laughing.

'This is the dilemma facing FYRoM...how to consolidate their modern-Slavic attributes with the known, ancient-Greek attributes of the original authentic Macedonians from classical antiquity.'
There is no dilemna.
'not ancient-Macedonians because at the 6th Century A.D. there was No ancient-Macedonians, nor was there any ancient-Spartans or ancient-Athenians.'
Therefore, the modern greek has no relationship with the ancient macedonia of alexander the great. But, they do have a non- european ethiopian sub- stratum. you know, nick the greek has hit the nail on the head with this issue, nick is right. the modern greeks have no relationship with the ancient greeks. in fact, the first president of the modern greek state was albanian.  

I have to agree with nick cuz the people of yugoslavia are not macedonia but more turkic and slavic from steppe of asia near mongolia.

i agree with greeks, steppe mongol people go back home and leave the place to the greek.

Greeks see themselves as the sole and legal, cultural and ethnic descendants of the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage, so naturally the Greeks get miffed when FYRoM, a newly emergent Slavic country attempts to build a National Identity based on their cultural-heritage.

The rights and wrongs of FYRoM calling itself Republic of Macedonia are more philosophical and have more to do with Morals and Ethics, than with history or ownership of name. Greeks cannot stop FYRoM calling itself "Macedonia" on the basis of history, the reason is not a historical one but a legal one, to do with human-rights and the right of self-determination.

That FYRoM has right to self-determine they way it wishes and sees fit is undeniable...It's the Morals of it, and the Ethical principles of naming yourself after a name who's Identity is rooted in classical antiquity and known to belong to another peoples, a neighbouring peoples. When FYRoM opted to go for the Macedonian name for country name, nationality, language and ethnicity, it was doing so from an unprincipled, morally bankrupt, opportunistic stand-point, knowing full well and in advance it would enter into a political and historical quagmire.

In practice, it’s not about who is right or who is wrong, it's about which country can better convince other nations of its argument...Greece has the backing of classicist scholars and the International academic community, which subdues somewhat the forces of political expediancy, inhibiting global politicians from supporting the FYRoM cause.

Politically and legally, FYRoM has right to self-determine as Republic of Macedonia...but at the expense and exclusion of the Greeks who consider that Identity to belong to Greek heritage and have the scholarly-academic world on-side supporting them. Unfortunately for FYRoM, Greece is an established member of both the EU and NATO, and is quite determined to defend-protect it's cultural-heritage because for Greece, it constitutes a significant and substantial part of the Greek National Identity.

There does exist a mutual and common cultural-heritage between all the Nations of the Haemus, especially between neighbours. A common Greco-Slavic one developed from since the baptism of the Slavic tribes into Greek-Orthodox Christendom and into the ways culture and traditions of Byzantium. Slavs settled Imperial Byzantine lands and absorbed the local populace, this is how they see it but in fact, there is a difference between (i) absorbing and (ii) mixing with Greco-Romans. There is No evidence to suggest that the culture of FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs has been significantly influenced by the culture of the ancient Macedonians, there is ample evidence though, of a Byzantine Greco-Roman influence on them, culminating later into a Greco-Slavic one, elements of which still exist today.

It was wrong...both Morally and Ethically for a Slavic speaking peoples to rubbish modern-Greeks and their cultural-heritage on the off-chance they had opportunity to usurp the Macedonian name and Identity exclusively for themselves. It was wrong for FYRoM to do what it did, apply an ancient and archaic, Greek-Hellenic Identity to a South-Slavic peoples.

I never realised  before, what the greek face living next to slav and turk. I support the view ancient macedonia was greek kingdom and greeks have histioric right, leave them alone.

Greece has no money!!!!! Broke, bankrupt, kaput. And things will get worse. This country is in shambles.
Who is Greece to dictate to another sovereign country how to conduct itself? Is this the 21st century, or Middle Ages??
The fact that Greece carps about Macedonia only demonstrates how pathetically little Greece has to show for itself.
Unfortunately, in the real world (especially in international relations), money brings power and influence. Greece has no power and influence, because it has no money. Just some figs, dates, olives, and Greek yogurt.
Nobody cares about Greek position on Macedonia.
 

this would be a legitimate concern of the greek state if there had been a greek state 2500 year ago, but certainly it would not be a concern of a greek state created under the london protocol 1830. the balkan had been occupied by slavs from the 6th century AD.
why during the treaty of berlin 1878, did not greece mention annexing both macedonian and thessaly to its territory. the answer is simple macedonia had never been a part of greece.   

the BMARC or forerunner of VMRO was formed in 1893, titled the Bulgarian Macedonian- Adrianople Revolutionary Committee. its aim was to gain autonomy for Macedonia and Adrianople regions in the Ottoman Empire. its beyond me how you can say in 2012 that slavs are usurping the macedonian name and identity. the slavs have been recognised as macedonian from before 1893.
Nick the Greek we're tired of your expression, we're interested in historic facts, if you don't have historic facts why do you bother.

Macedonia:Slavicized-Greeks - Hellenized-Slavs

What do they have in common...I mean, what do Slavicized-Greeks and Hellenized-Slavs have in common ???

1...The Haemus (Balkan) peninsula is home to both of them, thats what!

2...The extended geographic-region of Macedonia is home to both of them, thats what!

3...Orthodox Christendom, thats what!

4...Greco-Slavic Byzantine cultural-heritage, thats what!

Slavicized-Greeks can be found amongst Slavic speakers, North of the current borders of the Hellenic Republic.

Hellenized-Slavs can be found amongst Greek speakers, South of the current borders of the Hellenic Republic.

It takes a leap of faith to admit that they even exist!

That South-Slavs differ in Morphology from the West-Slavs and from the East-Slavs as a reflection is a true statement to make, testament to the cross-fertilization which must have occured between the native-indigenous peoples of the Haemus and the in-coming Slavic tribes from since the 6th Century A.D. Greco-Slavic genetic infusions traversing a time continuum spanning 1,400 years.

It's hard to quantify, who influenced who in genetic terms.
Certainly, in the morphology aspect, the southern-most Slavs look more like their immediate neighbours than they do to say Russian-Slavs or Polish-Slavs. If L.Luca Cavalli-Sforza, the worlds leading geneticist is to be believed, his genetic Maps appear to suggest that the Greek-Hellenic genetic footprint overlaps into Slavic speaking territory, as far North as the Danube river...see here:
(link to www.pnas.org)
4th Map down. L.Luca Cavalli-Sforza, his complete Works on Genes Peoples and Languages, I post here:
(link to www.pnas.org)

That the Slavic tribes were Influenced at the genetic level by the local element is evident, so how do we proceed from here. It is safe to suggest based on the evidence ofcourse, that Slavicized-Greeks can be found within the South-Slavic melieu, based on the works of the worlds leading geneticist.

That the Slavic tribes Hellenized ((by force)(by free will))can not be dismissed. The Slavophones of Northern-Greece are a Slavic-speaking peoples who attest to having Greek-Hellenic consciousness, they fought for the Hellenic cause during the Balkan Wars and were instrumental in returning back to Greek hands, ancient-Macedonian territory.

Greeks lost Macedonia through conquest at various intervals during the past, but they have always regained Macedonia back by conquest...Macedonia, the real and proper ancient territory is now safely back in Greek hands. Greeks do not concern themselves with the latin-Roman era territory of Macedonia, for that is not real or proper Macedonia for the Greeks but an extended latin-Roman administrative district which covered Paeonian lands and Dardanian lands, places Alexander the Great never visited or set-foot.

Slavicized-Greeks and Hellenized-Slavs owe it to the memory of the ancient-Macedonians to carry their name honourably. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage, a line was drawn when the latin-Romans came to Macedonia and extended the original lands to cover Paeonia and Dardania. The cross-over point is clear, Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage and Modern Macedonians, whether Slavicized or Hellenized should respect it's ancient-Greek conception

If there were no Greeks or Greece today to claim the legacy of the Ancient Macedonians, Alexander the King of Macedon would still be assigned to Greek heritage. The Idea that a Slavic speaking people could step in to claim the legacy of the Greeks is absolutely preposterous.

the legacy of the greek is indebtedness of hundreds of billions of euro to the european union and its member states. the greek have a romanticised history dreamnt by oxford and cambridge history textbook dealers.
why during the treaty of berlin 1878, did not greece mention annexing both macedonian and thessaly to its territory. the answer is simple macedonia had never been a part of greece.the modern known and documented history tells it all!   

This is lost matter for Greece. Period.

Love all these phony people writing in, "Nigel Harlington-Grove" and "Chaz"...all Greeks in disguise.

the BMARC or forerunner of VMRO was formed in 1893, titled the Bulgarian Macedonian- Adrianople Revolutionary Committee. its aim was to gain autonomy for Macedonia and Adrianople regions in the Ottoman Empire. its beyond me how you can say in 2012 that slavs are usurping the macedonian name and identity. the slavs have been recognised as macedonian from before 1893.

the name macedonia will continue to be used, there is no negotiating point with respect to the name macedonia, the true legacy of greece is its indebtedness of hundreds of billions of euro to the european union and its member states.

what greco romans are you talking about, the roman empire took over greece 146 BC., the greeks escaped to seleucia, antioch, alexandria, other asian&african cities. the byzantine empire was a roman empire and not a greek empire. 

the word byzantine is an earlier name of constantinople, constantinople was at one time the capital of the roman empire. the slavs had entered the balkan between the 5th century AD and the 9th century AD, the byzantine thema of macedonia which was then defined within thrace.    

Macedonian Identity was exclusively Greek during one historical period...right up till the coming of the latin speaking Romans to the Haemus peninsula.

Latin-Roman rule witnessed the original ancient-Greek region of Macedonia expand, change size and shape...and ethnic composition, but the Greek element was there

The latin speaking-Romans Romanized vast swathes of the Haemus...the Jericek line is often cited as the marker which dilineates the divide between latin-Roman influence and Greco-Roman influence in the Haemus. This divide is not much different to the genetic Map of L.Luca Cavalli-Sforza, depicting and illustrating the genetic signature of the Greeks and of partial Greek peoples currently residing in the Haemus.

That FYRoM is included into that genetic (signature) footprint speaks volumes.

The genetic geography of the Greek-Hellenic colonization of antiquity is clearly Mapped and the Southern Balkans are included into that footprint as a area who's peoples can boast partial-Greek ancestry...not full, but partial ancestry so lets be clear about that.

Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage because at one-time, during the earliest of historical periods, that Identity was exclusively Greek. That exclusivity ended when the latin-Romans came to the Haemus and expanded the original region of Macedonia to cover Paeonia and Dardania, for strategic administrative purposes.

If FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs carry native and indigenous genes in their biological make-up, that would be because they had Greco-Roman ancestors who for one reason or another, decided to adopt the Slavic language and culture when the region was settled by the Slavic Tribes during the 6th Century A.D.

Slavicized Greeks could Re-Hellenize...If they wanted to!

Re-Hellenization remains the only way of sharing the history and heritage of the Greeks...Re-Hellenize willingly and voluntarily and return back to the fold. If Alexander the Great means that much to you, Re-Hellenize Now!

It is obvious to any rational person that Macedonia can never come to any understanding with Greece, and this is because Greece will never admit to the terrible wrongs it has committed against the Macedonians.

All of Nick the Greek et al's rhetoric is just obfuscation and distraction from the real issues.

There is little point in reasoning with the Greeks. Greeks are absolutely the worst nationalists and ethnocentrists on the planet. They simply cannot get along with anyone - just look at how the Greeks have now alienated the Germans.

Nick the Greek it's nice to know you're your own best audience, because no one is listening. They never were.

the fact is that the root of bulgaria is known to be constructed on thracian tribes, yet for macedonia we are told not to recognise that our root is constructed on macedonian tribes. 

Now that Greece has screwed the European Union and private bondholders out of hundreds of billions of euros, and is now living on foreign welfare, Greece has lost all voice and influence in international affairs. Nobody will give Greece the time of day for years to come; Greece has simply inflicted far too much damage. From this day forward, Brussels and Berlin will dictate to Greece.
Greece has always been used to having its cake and eating it too, but this has all come to an end.
 

The John Smith analogy attempts to explain the Silliness of the name dispute between FYRoM and Greece in simplistic fashion. It goes like this: Two John Smiths could live in peace, side by side, next door to each other, but if one John Smith pretends to be the other one...that action would be called Identity Theft.

similarly......

Two Macedonias could live in peace, side by side, next door to each other but if one of those Macedonias decides to usurp the Identity of the other one...that would be considered Identity theft, or in FYRoM's case, cultural thievery.

The intricacies surounding the correct usage of the Macedonian name traversies political, legal, philological, moral and ethical dimensions.

FYRoM has invoked the UN human-rights charter in order to action it's self-determination right to self-determine as a Nation of Macedonians in the ethnic and racial sense, and in the cultural linguistic sense, when it is all but given, these Identity factors do not bode well with FYRoM's Slavic characteristics.

Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people but FYRoM disputes and contests this point in the face of overwhelming material evidence to the contrary...alienating a whole Nation of Greeks and the Greek diaspora, and making enemies out of historian scholars and academics alike, who staked their professional carears on the dissemination of Graeco-Roman classical history.

Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage...FYRoM wanting to use that Identity for it's new Slavic country, nationality, language and ethnicity goes against the grain of decency and good neighbourly conduct.

In December 2011, Greece received a severe, embarrassing rebuke from the International Court of Justice at The Hague. In a 15-1 verdict (the sole dissenting judge was a Greek), Greece was found in violation of the 1995 Interim Accord by blocking Macedonia's accession to NATO at the 2008  Bucharest Summit. Greece could no longer obstruct Macedonia's accession to multi-national institutions like NATO and the EU or it would be in violation of international law. THIS VERDICT IS BINDING UPON GREECE AND CANNOT BE APPEALED.
As a result of the ICJ decision, no country or international leader supports Greece's position on Macedonia, as this would demonstrate disrespect and disregard for the ICJ.
Furthermore, Greece is now under the direct control of bureaucrats in Brussels, Berlin and the IMF in New York because of Greece's colossal debt crisis. Greece must abide by their demands for austerity and reform in exchange for further bailouts.
So Greece has become an increasingly isolated country within the international community, and it's entirely Greece's fault. It is a result of Greece's extreme chauvinism and ethnocentrism, a complete inability to get along with others, an insistence that it is always right, a refusal to own up to historical wrongs.
Judge for yourselves.

Nick the Greek your musings are becoming more erratic and bizarre...it's kind of like the last gasp.

i'm with nick, i think he is more convincing.

@ nick the greek.
the greeks left greece in 146 bc.you today are not forebear of either the ancient hellene or ancient macedonia population.why do you wish to misappropriate histories that have nothing to do with your ancestors.

I must say, yugoslavs do have right to their own identity but greece has right to protect it's national history. It's a hard problem to resolve if the yugoslavs insist on calling themselves macedonians. I pity for the greeks.

To all you fascist GREEKS out there apposing the view of Macedonia's rights as a nation are sad, for centuries and historically you have tried to strip away our people from their own identity and right to self-determination , for centuries you have tried to claim what is not yours , i have one thing to say to all of you, MACEDONIA WILL ALWAYS BE MACEDONIA!! not Greek,not Bulgarian, not turk, not anything else but MACEDONIA!! For centuries we have stood the test of time through the Bulgarian war, the Turkish ottoman empire and the greek genocide against our own people which has gone under the radar for centuries we have been attacked from all angles but we MACEDONIANS have stood strong and will continue to stay strong !!  So all of you who appose this view can sit on it because the end shall only tell THE MACEDONIANS will finally get what there deserve their own title as MACEDONIA.. 

  Ever since the Republic of Macedonia declared its independence fromYugoslavia in 1991 under the name “Republic of Macedonia” Greece has beenwaging a propaganda campaign against it promoting the idea that Macedonia isexclusively Greek and that no one except Greece had the right to claim itsancient heritage, including its symbols, flags and name. This is echoed, loudand clear both inside and outside of Greece. Greece’s basis for the so calleddispute with the Republic of Macedonia is, according to Greece, “the Republicof Macedonia harbors territorial ambitions toward Greece’s northern provincealso called Macedonia”.
Eventhough the Republic of Macedonia made amendments to its constitution todisclaim any "territorial ambitions", removed all disputed symbolsand changed its flag, the Greek State still stubbornly persists on its missionto prevent Macedonia from entering international institutions and from gainingworld recognition.
  The purpose of this essay is to provide the reader with relevantinformation that;
Proves that Greece has no basis for its arguments with Macedonia.
 
Proves that Greece’s arguments are a ruse to sidestep more important issues.
 
Highlight some very important issues that Macedonians living in Greece are faced with, which Greece has so far ignored
Greece claims that Macedonia is exclusively Greek because the ancient Macedonian heritage belongs to Greece but it provides no valid arguments to qualify its claims.
 

     The creationof the modern Balkan States during the 19th century was a result of (a),the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and (b) the introduction of nationalism inthe region.
     Throughout the later part of the 500 year old Ottoman occupation of theBalkans and up to the 19th century, national awareness did not existamong the Balkan people. The concept of “nationality” was unknown to theOttoman citizen who at the time identified only by his or her religion be it Muslim,Christian, Jew or other. 
     It is also a well known fact that the Balkan region was without bordersfor more than twenty centuries and was conquered, invaded and settled by avariety of people.
 When Greece became a state for the first time in 1829 it consisted onlyof the region today known as the Peloponnesus which was then populated by amajority of Albanian, Turk, Vlach and Macedonian speakers (there were no otherethnic indicators to distinguish the various language speakers from one anothersince ethnicity at the time was unknown to those people). Historically anorganized and united Greek state never existed. The ancient world was neverunified and existed not as one but as many states and worlds with varyinggovernments, languages and cultures.
 Over the years the Greek people, by war and imperial ambitions,incorporated more lands into their state including Epirus, Thessaly, Crete andMacedonia, which historically were never unified as a single state and neverbelonged to Greece. Further, the people on those lands were also not Greeks andlinguistically belonged to the Albanian, Vlach, Turk and Macedonian speakingfamilies.
 Soit would not be wrong to state that the entire southern Balkan Peninsula onwhich modern Greece is located today was populated by a vast majority of non-Greekpeople who spoke Macedonian, Albanian, Turk, Vlach and other non-Greeklanguages and who at the time had no national awareness and had only their religionsin common.
 It is also accurate to state that according to census reports compiled bythe Republic of Macedonia after 1991, there are predominantly Macedonian,Albanian, Turk and Vlach speakers living in the Republic of Macedonia today. In other words, when the Greek State was formed in 1829 it consisted of exactlythe same ethnic identities that the Republic of Macedonia had in 1991.Thereason there is a difference between the 19th century ethnicidentities in Greece and those of today is that Greece has “Hellenized” them(mostly by force) and turned them into Greeks. In 1928 Greece declared that thepopulation in Greece is homogeneous consisting of 98% pure Greeks and 2% MuslimGreeks.Although Greece today claims that its people are the descendents of theancient Greeks the truth is Greece has no basis for this claim. Its people aremodern Balkanites similar to those who live in its neighbouring countries andnothing more.Inother words, a modern Greek making claims that he or she is a descendent of theancient Greeks who lived on the same lands 2,500 years ago is equivalent to a modernCanadian making claims that he or she is a descendant of the ancient Canadians wholived on the same lands before the Europeans discovered them. Greece claims that the name Macedonia belongs exclusively to Greece because Greece has a province with the same name. Greece however provides no valid arguments as to how it acquired that Macedonian province and why only “it” can be called Macedonia when that very same province belongs to a greater geographical and historical region called Macedonia.
 Nationalismwas imported into the Balkans in the early 19th century and tookhold in Greece, Serbia and later Bulgaria.  Macedonia being the most oppressed region in the Balkansstood at the center of the then Ottoman State and was less accessible to the outsideworld so naturally nationalism took longer to infiltrate Macedonia. This howeverdid not stop the Macedonian people from acquiring a Macedonian national consciousness,from making a bid to free themselves from the Ottomans and from attempting to createa Macedonian state that would have encompassed all of geographic Macedoniaincluding the Republic of Macedonia and all the geographical Macedonian regionsheld by Greece, Bulgaria and Albania today.

 The Macedonians are the only people in the southern Balkans who organizeda massive national liberation movement and in 1903 rose up against the OttomanEmpire to free themselves without outside help. Unfortunately the Macedonian uprising did not produce the desiredresults and opened up Macedonia to foreign intrigue and territorial ambitions especiallyon the part of its neighbours who in 1912 invaded, occupied and in 1913 dividedMacedonia among themselves.
In other words, 51% of the Macedonian geographical territory whichGreece today exclusively calls “Macedonia” or “Greek Macedonia” or the “GreekProvince of Macedonia” did not belong to Greece prior to 1912 and was neverGreek. Prior to 1912 Macedonia was part of the Ottoman Empire and belonged tothe people who lived in Macedonia, the true owners of Macedonian lands. Greecegained this territory through war and by evicting all those who opposed itincluding the legitimate owners of those lands. Greece invaded Macedonia in1912 under the pretence of liberating the Macedonian people, occupied andpartitioned it with its Serbian and Bulgarian partners against the will of theMacedonian people.
In fact Greece gained its part of Macedonia through deception and a forceof arms without the consent of the Macedonian people. Unable to free themselves from the Ottoman yoke the Macedonian peoplewelcomed the Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian armies in 1912 as their liberators.But instead of being liberated they quickly found themselves occupied and theirstate partitioned.
As for the name “Macedonia” I would like to remind the reader thatbefore 1912 there was one Macedonia, the entire region of geographical andhistoric Macedonia, the very same region the Macedonian people rose in 1903 toliberate and create a Macedonian State. Therefore, the Republic of Macedonia has both geographical andhistorical rights to call itself “Macedonia” since that state belongs togeographical Macedonia and to the people who rose up in 1903 and during theSecond World War to liberate it.
As for Greece claiming rights to the name “Macedonia”, here are somefacts: In 1913 after Macedonia waspartitioned, Greece named its part of Macedonia “New Territories”. Later itrenamed it “Northern Greece”. Then in the late 1980’s when it was inevitablethat a new Macedonian state was about to declare its independence from Yugoslavia,Greece renamed it “Macedonia”.
Therefore Greece has neither historical nor geographical rights to thename “Macedonia”. Greece only uses this argument to sidestep other more importantMacedonian issues and as a ruse to deflect attention from them.
Greece claims that there are no Macedonians living in Greece or in geographic Macedonia, only Greeks, Serbians and Bulgarians and that the Macedonian nation was created by Tito in 1945. 
 

     The ethnic mix of people in Macedonia prior to the 1912 Greek, Serbianand Bulgarian invasion consisted of a large ethnic Macedonian majorityindigenous to the region, Turks, Arnauts (Albanians), Vlachs, Roma and other smallerminorities. In other words, the same mix of ethnic identities that exist today inthe Republic of Macedonia (with the exception of the Turks who left Macedoniasoon after the Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian invasion) was present in the entireregion of geographic Macedonia prior to 1912. There were no ethnic Greeks orethnic Bulgarians in Macedonia at that time, only ethnic Macedonians who served“Greek” and “Bulgarian” interests.Mostcensus statistics released before 1912 were compiled by Greek, Serbian andBulgarian statisticians and were based on “religious affiliation”. As mentionedearlier, at the time there was no clear identifier to determine ethnically whowas who except for language and religion. However, the vast majority of peopleliving in Macedonia were Macedonian speakers. So the only option census takershad was to use “religion” as an identifier of ‘nationality”. Since mostMacedonians were Christians the only difference between them was “whose” Churchthey were affiliated with. However the only churches allowed to operate in OttomanMacedonia at the time were the Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian Churches. So thecensus statisticians used “religious affiliation” as the identifier to which “nationality”the people living in Macedonia belonged. In other words a person was consideredto be a “Greek national” if he or she attended liturgy in the Greek Church, a “Serbiannational” if he or she attended liturgy in the Serbian Church and a “Bulgariannational” if he or she attended liturgy in the Bulgarian Church. So naturallythere being no Macedonian Church, statistics showed no Macedonians living inMacedonia, only Greeks, Serbians and Bulgarians.
Therefore it is not that Macedonians did not exist, as Greece likes usto believe, but it was the method that census takers and statisticians employedto represent the ethnic composition of the region that was incorrect. In factthe method was simply wrong and only served the territorial ambitions of the Greek,Serbian and Bulgarian states.

In 1991 the part of Macedonia that was originally occupied by Serbia, byreferendum, declared its independence from the Yugoslav federation and became afree and sovereign state called the Republic of Macedonia. Upon its successfuland peaceful separation from Yugoslavia, the Republic of Macedonia conductedits own census study and concluded that over 60% of its population was ethnicMacedonian. As for Greece, it has yet to conduct a proper census and still relies onoutdated methods such as “religious affiliation” to determine its ethniccomposition. This way it can hide its minorities and pretend that 98% of itspeople are pure Greeks and 2% are Muslim Greeks. Macedonians living in Greece are faced with a number of issues since the forceful invasion, occupation and illegal partition of Macedonia. 
 

     The Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian invasion of Macedonia broughtcatastrophic results to the Macedonian people. After driving the Ottomans outwith the Macedonian people’s help, the three invaders Greece, Serbia andBulgaria began to fight among themselves inside Macedonia for a larger portionof the Macedonian territory. In the process they burned down hundreds ofMacedonian villages and murdered, tortured and exiled thousands of civiliansincluding women and children as documented by the 1913 Carnegie EndowmentInquiry.Finally when they stopped fighting they partitioned Macedonia betweenthemselves under the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest where Greece received 51% ofMacedonia’s territory, Serbia received 39% and Bulgaria received 10%In 1991 the part of Macedonia that was originally occupied by Serbia, byreferendum, declared its independence from the Yugoslav federation and became afree and sovereign state called the Republic of Macedonia. The parts occupiedby Greece, Bulgaria and Albania remain occupied to this day.

i agree with MAKEDONKA, her argument is much more persuasive, i don't understand NICK THE GREEK argument.i would understand NICK THE GREEK complaint if it was directed at the roman empire but it is millenia to late.

There is nothing authentically Macedonian in FYRoM. Every single thing in FYRoM is fabricated for appearances and for cosmetic purposes only, from street furniture to the names of airports, sports stadiums, streets highways and arenas, everything is fabricated. FYRoM's Slavic Identity is kept hidden, under-wraps so to speak, super-imposed veneered over with an Identity long associated with Hellenism. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage but FYRoM's Indoctrinated South-Slavs have been taught to contest this fact, this long established academic reference point.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs, at best, could only ever be Secondary Macedonians on the basis the lands on which they reside were named Macedonia-Secunda by the latin speaking Romans.

Macedonia-Prima, the original Macedonia was kept Greek, reserved for Greeks only!

Macedonia-Secunda, an extended geographic-region the Romans expanded to cover Panonian-lands and Dardanian-lands, it was kept for the foreign element, reserved for NoN-Greeks. FYRoM is situated here, in a geographic space the latin-speaking Romans called Macedonia-Secunda, the Second-Macedonia. The latin speaking Romans distinguished Greeks from NoN-Greeks when they kept the original Macedonia exclusive to Greeks.

Numerous latin-Roman Emperors claimed Hellenic ancestry and Julius Ceasar carried a bust of Alexander the Great wherever his campaigns took him.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs were taught in the Slavist schools of the old-Yugoslavia but those Slavist schools did not teach South-Slavic children that Macedonia-Prima was kept original and authentic and exclusively Greek...this lesson they ommitted from the Slavist school curriculum, hence FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are learning about it for the very first time in their life, on the Internet and in discussion Forums like this one.

Macedonians are the Greeks from Macedonia-Prima, so called by the latin speaking Romans in order to distinguish them and real-proper Macedonia from Macedonia-Secunda, the Second-Macedonia.

Macedonia-Prima for Greeks...Macedonia-Secunda for NoN-Greeks!

FYRoM wanting a Macedonian Identity could only ever be realized in that form...in the Secondary form, because there is nothing Macedonian there, in FYRoM, or should I say Macedonia-Secunda!

The breakup of the former Yugoslavia was Greece's worst nightmare.
As long as the Macedonians were a faceless, nameless, mute, anonymous people, completely submerged under the Yugoslav republic, Greece was perfectly happy.
However, when it became inevitable that Yugoslavia would break apart into independent republics, Greece became alarmed. Macedonia would finally be on the world radar screen and have an international expression of identity. It would become master of its own affairs and destiny, and not be ruled by the Serbs in Belgrade (Greece's old ally). An independent Macedonia would raise the consciousness of Macedonians all around the world, including in Greece. It would raise issues of human rights in Greece, and reopen the historical narrative of Greece's brutal treatment of the Macedonians after Macedonia's partition in 1912-13.
Again, Greece's worst nightmare.
So, in 1988, Greece developed a sudden love-affair and attachment to the name "Macedonia", and embarked on a campaign to claim exclusive heritage to "Macedonia", all in an effort to "denationalize" and discredit the real Macedonians. This campaign continues to this day, although it has entirely failed. Greece cannot come to terms with 21st century international values.
Macedonians are a constant reminder of Greece's dark history and crimes, and this why Greece cannot abide an independent, sovereign state called Macedonia.
 

@ nick the greek
why during the treaty of berlin 1878, did not greece mention annexing both macedonian and thessaly to its territory. the answer is simple macedonia had never been a part of greece.
the BMARC or forerunner of VMRO was formed in 1893, titled the Bulgarian Macedonian- Adrianople Revolutionary Committee. its aim was to gain autonomy for Macedonia and Adrianople regions in the Ottoman Empire. its beyond me how you can say in 2012 that slavs are usurping the macedonian name and identity. the slavs have been recognised as macedonian from before 1893. 

the modern known and documented history tells it all! 

were they the people that you speak of in such a derogatory way today, jugoslav and fyromian. no they were the true macedonian,    

Macedonia:FYRoM Disconnected from Macedonia and Macedonians Respectively...

When FYRoM professes to having ethnic-racial, national, and cultural-linguistic connections to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity...are they being disingenuous ?

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs covet a Macedonian Identity rooted to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity, but the evidence overwhelmingly disconnects them from Macedonia and Macedonians respectively.

Everything that is known about ancient-Macedonians places them into the Greek domain and into the Greek-Hellenic collective of peoples...backed-up endorsed and supported by accredited scholars of Graeco-Roman classical history.

Everything that is known about FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs places them into the Slavic domain and into the Slavonic collective of peoples...backed-up endorsed and supported by accredited ethnogenists, linguists, anthroplogists and geographers.

So when FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs profess to having ethnic-racial connections and cultural-linguistic connections to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity, they lie...and they do it Intentionally!

When the Greeks profess to having ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic connections to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity...they do it on the basis of these proven connections, see here:(i) fraternal,(ii) geographic,(iii) cultural,(vi) linguistic and (v) historic, Identity factors which cannot easily be dismissed.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs need to be told that Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people and they need to be told it repeatedly...from Slavic educated people.

For how long can Slavdom stand idly-by, watching one their own mock and ridicule Greeks whilst they denigrate Hellenism in the full gaze of the International community.

If being Macedonian means I have to speak a Slavic language similar to Bulgarian...how close am I to the ancient-Macedonians ?

If being Macedonian means I have to belong to the Slavic collective of peoples...how close am I to the ancient-Macedonians ?

If being Macedonian means I have to live on ancient-Paeonian lands...how close am I to the ancient-Macedonians ?

If being Macedonian means I have to hail from Serbian and Bulgarian stock...how close am I to the ancient-Macedonians ?

If being Macedonian means I have to hate Greeks and their Hellenic culture...how close am I to the ancient-Macedonians ?

If being Macedonian means I have to hide my Slavic heritage...how close am I to the ancient-Macedonians ?

If being Macedonian means I have to fabricate the ancient history of Europe...how close am I to the ancient-Macedonians ?

If being Macedonian means I have to feel like one...how close am I to the ancient-Macedonians ?

If being Macedonian means I have to mock, ridicule and humilate the modern-Greeks...how close am I to the ancient-Macedonians ?

If being Macedonian means I have to denigrate Hellenism...how close am I to the ancient-Macedonians ?

If being Macedonian means I have to invoke the UN human-rights charter and insist, it is my right to self-determine as Macedonian...how close am I to the ancient-Macedonians ?

If being Macedonian means I have to Abuse the UN human-rights charter of self-determination...how close am I to the ancient-Macedonians ?

If being Macedonian is as simple as all that...then I am Macedonian, and Nobody can do anything about it, so stuff the Greeks!

The Big Fat Greek Debt Crisis (the elephant in the room...)
Do you ever get the feeling that Greeks are living in a vacuum?
Greeks carp and fulminate over Macedonia, while their own backyard is in complete chaos and shambles. It is like the person who complains about the construction noise going on next door while his own house is on fire.
I could go on and on about The Big Fat Greek Debt Crisis but let's just say that it has caused Greece's image and reputation to plummet. The BFGDC made the entire country fall under intense international scrutiny and focus for the world to learn just how rotten and corrupt this country is. For all of Greece's delusions and pretensions of grandeur, the world discovered that the emperor has no clothes! The BFGDC has also eroded Greece's voice in world affairs. Why should Macedonia care what Greece now thinks???
Aside from the BFGDC, Greeks are a highly insular people. They are not worldly and sophisticated, they are not interested in learning about other peoples and cultures, they don't expose themselves to new ways of thinking, they don't travel (except to and within Greece), they don't embrace new values. This is a country that doesn't recognize any ethnic minorities within its borders, and give them full constitutional rights.
This is what Macedonians have had to deal with for one hundred years. Nick The Greek is the perfect embodiment of the backward Greek character.

The historical record, supported by archaelogical evidence tells us there was a Greek-Hellenic governing, royal-elite in Macedonia from since before 500 BC. Their presence was still there at 146 BC when the Romans came and expelled them to Thrace following the Fourth Macedonian War, leaving only a scattered and diluted population behind made-up of serfs who provided the incoming Romans with domestic servants, the rest were sold into slavery. Macedonia became an official Roman Province of the empire at 146 BC. In that same year, the Roman Empire defeated Carthage and sacked Corinth...what they did to those two great City-States they did to Macedonia, scattered and diluted the population into slavery.
From since before the times of Alexander the Great, up till the coming of the latin speaking Romans to the Haemus peninsula...there never existed in historical verity, an independent Macedonia. The place was systematically a part of the Greco-Roman world. Firstly, it was pivotal to a Greek-speaking Hellenic-empire and secondly, it became integral to the Latin-speaking Roman-Empire. The latin-Roman Empire named the place where FYRoM is right now, to "Macedonia Salutaris," meaning advantageous or beneficial, because it had been added-on, it became an add-on, an extension to the original-Macedonia. Hundreds of years (318 AD) later, they renamed it to "Macedonia Secunda," meaning Second-Macedonia. The original-Macedonia the Romans kept as "Macedonia Prima," meaning foremost, or the First-Macedonia.
FYRoM can actually cite, quite a good precedent for its existence under the Macedonian name...but it can only do it in the secondary sense, as Macedonia-Secunda, the Second-Macedonia. This is the closest they get to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity, not close at all and not equidistant either, the Greeks are closer in the formost sense, and in the Macedonia-Prima sense.
From since 350-750 AD, there existed two Macedonian provinces in the Haemus, (i) Macedonia-Prima which equates to todays Greek province, and (ii) Macedonia-Secunda which equates to where FYRoM is today. With the Slavonic tribes invading both provinces, the Greco-Romans moved the regions name to cover the Macedonian "Theme" in Thrace, where Bulgaria is right now. Under the Bulgarian, but moreso under the Ottoman empire, the region lost some importance and lapsed into obscurity, until the Congress of Vienna in 1815 and Greek independence in 1831, when the Haemus peninsula opened-up and became accessible to both German and French cartographers. The Maps they produced depicting and illustrating the ethnic and racial composition of the southern Balkans has always been a mosaic featuring five constituent ingredients: namely Greeks, Bulgars, Serbians, Albanians and Turks.

There has never existed a seperate nation of Macedonians in the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula...the Macedonians have always been a Greek speaking Hellenic peoples. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage. If being Macedonian means being Greek in the first place, FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs should respect that, for they should not underestimate the international communities collective intelligence pertaining to matters Macedonian.
 
 
 
 

At best, FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are Secondary-Macedonians on the basis they now live on Roman-Macedonian lands which the latin speaking Romans referred to initially as "Macedonia-Salutaris" but later renamed to "Macedonia-Secunda" in order to distinguish the place from the original Greek-Macedonia, the place where Alexander the Great was born.

Crystal clear then, FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not the Macedonians they think they are, or were told they are, I mean, they are not Macedonian in the Greek sense of that word but only in the secondary sense, on the basis they are not Greek and live on NoN-Greek, Roman-Macedonian lands which the latin speaking Romans called Macedonia-Secunda in order to distinguish it from Macedonia-Prima, the First-Macedonia, or Greek-Macedonia, the place where Alexander the Great was born.

When FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs tell us they are indigenous to the Haemus peninsula, on the basis of that PCT Theory of Mario Aliena, plus anthroplogical studies, plus genetics place them there, in their primordial homelands from since before classical antiquity, that would make them Paeonians and Dardanians...Not Macedonians, for Macedonians lived to the south of them, in a different geographic space where Hellenism and the Hellenes prevailed.

Macedonia from the original Greek lands, expanded, shifted, changed size shape and moved location in it's entirety over the Centuries. What is known for sure is this: The last official location of Macedonia was where Bulgaria is right now. The Byzantine Greco-Romans named it "Theme-Macedonia" a military district, established in order to save the Greco-Roman population from Bulgaro-Slavic excruciations.

FYRoM cannot use that name..."Theme-Macedonia" because it's in the wrong geographic location for them. FYRoM at that time was called Bulgaria, confusing, right! The last official-Macedonia, the Greco-Romans shifted from it's original location and placed where Bulgaria is right now. Bulgaria at that time was where FYRoM is right now ???

The Balkans is a mixed-up, messed-up place, it has been that way from since the arrival of the Avaro-Hunnic peoples, and the Bulgaro-Slavic peoples and finally the Turkistani peoples. The Greeks have had to deal with them in turn over the Centuries. The Haemus peninsula is the place which spawned Hellenism and the Hellenes. Greeks have right to defend and protect the host cultures history and heritage. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage and our neighbours should respect that.

If being Macedonian means being Greek in the first place...FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs shall do well to respect that by ending the name dispute now.

Do we really know enough about Macedonia...Yes we do! We know all this:

Grecia under latin-Roman rule constituted the provinces of Macedonia and Achaea but the Romans, whether they were Latin speakers or Greek speakers were very political people, they knew how to play politics with names and geography, for example:

211 BC, Macedonia is assigned provincial status to a Roman consul.

168 BC, Macedonia becomes Roman protectorate under the authority of the Senate...after the Roman victory at Pidna.

149-148 BC, Macedonia is annexed to the Roman Empire after crushing the rebellion of Andriscos (Pseudo-Philip V)

146 BC, Macedonia and Achaea of Grecia come under the official rule of the latin-Roman Empire after the battle of Corinth.

133 BC, The Aegean-Islands of Grecia are incorporated into the Roman Empire.

27 BC, Augustus created the province of Achaea in the Haemus Peninsula, and from the 2nd - 3rd centuries AD, Grecia is subdivided into the provinces of Achaea, Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace and Moesia.

384 AD, Theodosius divides Grecian territory, the provinces are now Crete, Achaea, Thessalia, Epirus Vetus, Epirus Nova, Macedonia-Prima and Macedonia II Salutaris.

From here onward...the latin-Roman-Empire gives way to the Greco-Roman Empire, also known as Byzantium or the Eastern-Roman Empire.

The next time Macedonia goes through some profound and equivocal changes, is when the Byzantines surprisingly move the name "Macedonia" to a completely different geographic location. The Greco-Romans shifted the Macedonian-Name, lock stock and barrel to Thrace, a political decision light-years ahead of it's time...

...Now we know Why they did that!

Macedonia:Macedonians Turks and FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs

Proud-Greeks, Proud-Turks and Reluctant-Slavs...All in that order!

In the same way Turkey cannot be named "Imperium Romanum" and claim Roman heritage for itself...FYRoM too, cannot be named "Macedonia" and claim Greek heritage for itself. The Turks differ from the Romans on ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic grounds. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs differ from the Greeks on ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic grounds.

The differences between Turkey and FYRoM is this:

The Turks do not claim to be Romans, neither do they claim to be the descedants of the Roman Empire...yet, FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs claim to be Macedonians and further claim to be the descendants of the Macedonian Empire.

The Slavs of FYRoM arbitrarily deciding to call themselves Macedonians, is the equivalent to the Turks from Turkey deciding to call themselves Romans...both Slavs and Turks respectively, could not justify those claims.

That the Slavs of FYRoM claim 1,400 years residency in the region, much longer in comparison to the Turks trivial 500 years residence, does not make them Macedonian nor the Turk Roman...both peoples, both Slavs and Turks were foreign and exogenous to the Haemus, they did not come into the region as Macedonians and Romans but as Slavs and Turks.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are neither justified nor correct when they call themselves Macedonians in the ethnic-racial sense and in the cultural-linguistic sense...they could only justify their claims to a Macedonian Identity on the basis of geography, courtesy of the latin-Romans naming the place where FYRoM is right now to Macedonia II Salutaris, which is not the real-original Macedonia. The latin-Romans named the real-original Macedonia to Macedonia-Prima meaning the first and foremost Macedonia, as opposed to Macedonia-Secunda meaning Second-Macedonia where FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs live.

The difference between the Slavs from FYRoM and the Turks from Turkey is this: The Turk from Turkey has always been proud to call himself a Turk...as opposed to the Slav from FYRoM, who is neither proud nor willing to refer to his Slavic heritage or to admit to his Slavic roots and ethno-origins.

Macedonians, Turks and FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs...Proud-Greeks, Proud-Turks and Reluctant-Slavs in that order!

If being Macedonian means being Greek in the first place...our Slavic and Turkic neighbours should respect that!

FYRoM's benefactors, those who invested heavily in an effort to establish a Macedonian nation peopled by NoN-Greeks...lost their investment, and their integrity and their credibility. They attempted to create something unnatural, something which did not exist in historical verity, and it took classicist-historians and the academic world to prove that to them.

It has to be pointed-out, that FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are neither justified nor correct when they call themselves Macedonians in the ethnic-racial sense and in the cultural-linguistic sense, they could only justify their claims to a Macedonian Identity on the basis of geography, courtesy of the latin-Romans having named the place where FYRoM is right now, to Macedonia II Salutaris, which is neither the real Macedonia nor the original Macedonia but an add-on, it was added-on, as an extension to original Macedonia, hence the term "Salutaris" meaning beneficial or advantageous!

The latin-Romans named the real-original Macedonia to Macedonia-Prima meaning the first and foremost Macedonia, as opposed to Macedonia-Secunda meaning Second-Macedonia where FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs live!

At best, FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are Secondary-Macedonians as in the Macedonia-Secunda sense, and in the Slav-Macedonian sense...no connection here to real Macedonia-Prima or real Greek Macedonians.

Clearly, FYRoM's benefactors underestimated the international communities collective intelligence on matters Macedonian.

You see, we know enough about Macedonia and Macedonians to place them into the Greek domain, in with the Greeks and into the Greek-Hellenic collective of peoples...FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not one of these people but South-Slavs beyond a shadow of a doubt.

If being Macedonian means being Greek in the first place...FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs should respect that, and their now, limited circle of friends should encourage them to respect that!

Before the Macedonians became Greek speakers and Hellenic people, what would they have been in terms of our understandings of modern ethnic and racial national-Identities. What the ancient-Macedonians were before they applied the Macedonian-name to themselves is irrelevant to us Greeks. We are only interested in Greeks, meaning, from the time the
Hellenic tribes formed. Lest we forget, if Greeks were something else before they became Greeks, that would not be of interest us, although it would be interesting to see which modern nation, or race of peoples today, would stake inheritance claims to that pre-Greek ancestry. Before the ancient-tribes of the Haemus peninsula formed a common collective Greek-Hellenic consciousness...what were they ? I mean, what was it that suddenly made them Greek!
I shall leave that speculation up to the Turanids, and to the Slavists, who see themselves in ancient-Trojans and ancient-Macedonians respectively.
Greeks today, face an onslaught on their national-history and their cultural-heritage from the likes of modern-Slavs and modern-Turks, who seek to place their roots and ethno-origins, not in the steppes of Asia where they truly originate but in the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula, the place that spawned the Hellenism and the Hellenic culture.
From since 1991, when FYRoM entered onto the world stage, the Greeks found themselves the target of some pretty nasty racist rhetoric complimenting some vile and virulent anti-Hellenic propaganda, which went straight for the Greek jugular. The systematic assassination of the Greek national-character reached fever pitch, Greeks had their history rubbished and their Hellenic culture denigrated.
On the back of the name dispute between FYRoM and Greece, saw every Greek-hating man and his dog have a dig at the Greeks.
And after 21 years of FYRoM attempting to usurp the Macedonian name away from the Greeks...What have they really achieved ? They = FYRoM's friends, sponsors, backers and supporters! That FYRoM has been abandoned as a lost cause is all but apparent, shoved-up a siding, kept at arms length, at a diatance...until it decides to respect the international communities collective intelligence on matters Macedonian.
What the pre-Greek Macedonian were, before they developed a Greek-Hellenic consciousness is of no interest to us Greeks, although we see Slavists attempt to claim their pre-Greek ethnic-racial, cultural-linguistic status. The problem for the Slavists is this: The moment they self-determined as Macedonians, they were already Greek...in mind, in body and in soul, for that name could only have come out from the Greek-Hellenic language, and language was the main ethnic Identifier, from since before classical antiquity.
 

 

If being Turk means being Roman, what sort of world would we be living in. Similarly, if being Bulgar means being Macedonian...can we really live in a world where we totally diregard and direspect other peoples history and cultural-heritage with impunity.

The Turks could, if they wanted to, make claims to be Romans. They could go even further, and claim the history and heritage of the Byzantine Roman Empire...but they dont, because they are proud Turks and the International community knows them as Turkic peoples.

Similarly, the Bulgars could, if they wanted to, make claims to be Macedonians. They could go even further, and claim the history and heritage of the Greco-Macedonian Empire...but they dont, because they are proud Bulgars and the International community knows them as Bulgarians.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs differ from the Turks and from the Bulgars in that they make incorrect and unjustified claims of ancestry to Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity...claims they cannot substantiate without the use of propaganda, revisionism or pseudo-history.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not the Macedonians they think they are or were told they are. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs could only ever be Macedonians in the Secondary sense and in the Slavic sense, but never in the natural Greeks sense of that word because Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people. The latin-Romans distinguished Greek-Macedonia from the add-on, extended Macedonia they reffered to as Macedonia II Salutaris.

From since they first met the Greeks, the Slavic tribes were not friendly but hostile invaders.

To save the people of Macedonia from Slavic incursions, attacks and excruciations, the Byzantine Greco-Romans took a complex executive decision to move the peoples of Macedonia-Prima, lock stock and barrel to a new safe area.

They found that safe place in a completely different geographic location in Thrace, where they set-up a military (Theme) district they named "Theme-Macedonia," situated where Bulgaria is right now.

That was the last official location of Macedonia!

Bulgaria could, if it wanted to, make a claim to having been Macedonia at one stage in time and during one historical period. Bulgarians could go futher and claim to be Macedonians...but they dont because the International community know them as Bulgarians.

Confused...? Confused are only the people who do not understand the complex political logic of the Greek mind nor the Roman mind.

With hindsight, that decision, by those Byzantine Greco-Romans to geographically shift Macedonia to new and different location was evidently light years ahead of it's time...Only Now, can we fully appreciate the reasons why they did that!

They were simply playing politics with Bulgars and Slavs, as if they knew, that far-off into the future, some Slavs might want to usurp the Macedonian name for Slavdom, and claim the history and heritage of the region for themselves...at the expense and exclusion of the Greeks.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs elected to play politics with the inventors of political intrigue...those Byzantine Greco-Romans were masters of it, and evidently light-years ahead of their time!

For myself...I am gratified and content to call them my ancestors.

The FYRoM - Greece name dispute is a very Silly dispute and a very irational one, the whole line of argument hinges on the fact that although the original inhabitants of ancient-Macedon were Greek speaking Hellenic people, that should not prevent the Slavic speaking inhabitants of the region from identifying as such.

Anyone in FYRoM, born after 1944, has only ever known themselves as Macedonians in the South-Slavic sense, within the confines of a Federated Yugoslavia, now defunct. So this is their Identity and it should be respected. There is a difference though, between the Macedonian Identity that belongs to Greek heritage and the one used by FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs...If somebody was to determine the best way of depicting that difference, that somebody would've solved the Name dispute in an Instant and at a stroke.

How to distinguish FYRoM's Macedonian Identity from the Macedonian Identity that belongs to Greek heritage, is something that has eluded the International problem-solvers for nigh-on 21 years. Anything that distinguishes them from the Greek-Macedonians, who have been calling themselves Macedonians in the regional sense for thousands of years would be considered a good turn, a good service to mankind so to speak, done in the interest of peace and co-existence.

The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise...the general consensus is that FYRoM sould accept a name which properly reflects the country's historical status prior to historical period known as classical antiquity. There are Macedonians in FYRoM, and from since 1944, this is the only Identity they have self-determined with and that must be respected.

There are Macedonians in Greece, that have been using that Identity for far far longer, that must be repected also.

Modern Day Solomons Tale: Macedonia...Hellenic or Slavic

The FYRoM - Greece Name dispute could be likened to a modern day Solomons Tale, where two mother's are claiming one child and King Solomon has to Judge which Mother that child should belong to!

Mathew Nimetz is the U.N. mediator appointed to assist both countries find a mutually acceptable Name which should, ultimately fascilitate FYRoM's entry into the prestigious Economic and Security structures of the EU and Nato, FYRoM says, it aspires to join. 

FYRoM tells the world that the Macedonian Name belongs to them, because they speak Macedonian and live in a country called Macedonia, and  feel Macedonian, so they Invoked their human right to decalre themselves Macedonians!

Greece tells the world that the Macedonian Name is a Greek-Hellenic Name and Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage. The Macedonian language was, and still is Greek, and Greeks have academic-scholarly proof of this, therefore it can not possibly be a Slavic language of the Serbo-Bulgarian variety. Greeks also say that the ancient-Macedonians were a Greek speaking Hellenic people, one of >230 known ancient-Greek groups tribes and kingdoms.

Question: If You were a modern day King Solomon, in who's favour would you judge....?

Greeks are realists, we recognize that other-Macedonians exist. Today the geographic-region of Macedonia is much more in size, than what it used to be in ancient times. The Romans expanded original-Macedonia by adding-on lands from ancient-Paeonia and Dardania to the original Kingdom. At this juncture, it must be pointed out that the Greek part, the ancient-Kingdom of Macedonia remained Greek through-out the ages.

Greeks ask that the seniority of the Greeks in regards to hierarchy, be respected in their own homelands.

Macedonians are the Greeks from Macedonia-Prima. The latin-Romans recognized the seniority of real-original Macedonia over the added-on parts, the parts the latin-Romans called Macedonia II Salutaris...meaning the Secondary parts, the benefical parts, the advantageous parts, the add-on parts.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not Macedonians in the Prima-sense because they are not Greeks...being Macedonian means being Greek in the first place, the Romans recognized that from since they distinguished real-original Macedonia from the one they added-on to it.

Greeks ask that the seniority of Macedonia-Prima (the Greek part) over Macedonia II Salutaris be respected!

It must be difficult for a Slavic child to comprehend the complexities of Graeco-Roman classical history when Balkan politics attributed the Macedonian name to their Slavic forebears.

Greeks are realists, we recognize that FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs have been using the Macedonian name from since comrade Tito created the Socialist Republic of Macedonia inside a Yugoslav Federation, but that does not mean they are Macedonians above and beyond the Greeks.

Greeks hold the senior position at the Macedonian-hierarchy table!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs could only ever be Secondary-Macedonians...in the Macedonia-Secunda sense and in the Slavic sense, and they should be encouraged by their friends to respect the seniority of the Greeks in their own homelands!

you fail to appreciate the detail of the tale: the whore unfortunately has suffocated and killed her own child in her sleep, she then replaces the dead infant with the living infant that belongs to her neighbour, in the morning the real mother of the living infant comes to the realisation that the dead baby along her side is not her child but the other woman's child. the matter is taken before the king, the king proposes to cut the living baby in half and issue half a dead child to each mother in his presence, this shocks the real mother the other woman is indifferent to the proposal she has no real love for the living infant. the whore is greece, the real mother is macedonia, macedonia will never accept a change to the name! 

In FYRoM today, there exists a people who speak a Slavic language in a West-Bulgarian dialect, who self-Identify as Macedonian in the ethnic and racial sense, in the national sense and in the cultural-linguistic sense despite these Identity factors being at odds with their overtly observable Slavic characteristics and in spite of the fact that a people exist just to the south of them, who have Identified themselves as Macedonians from since (808-778 BC) the times of the first King of Macedon...King Caranus.

In FYRoM today, there exists a people that call themselves ethnic-Macedonians, with emphasis on the ethnic term as if to underscore the validity of their ethnic status, despite the absence of such an ethnicity in historical verity and in spite of the fact that a people exist just to the south of them that have self-determined as Macedonians in the Hellenic sense from since the establishment of the first Kingdom of Macedon.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs inhabit an ancient-region of the Haemus called Paeonia, where Vylazora (Veles) was the capital city in ancient times. FYRoM's capital city Skopje was the capital of Dardania, an ancient-Illyrian place, the point here is this: There is nothing Macedonian in FYRoM.

In FYRoM today, there exists a Slavic speaking people who believe deeply, they are more Macedonian than the real proper Macedonians.

Greek despair but we No give-up...we shall continue to teach them things that have long been forbidden to them in their own country, where the words "Hellenism" and "Macedonian" never appear together next to each-other or in the same sentence.

Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people which FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs refuse to believe on the basis they had a Slavist school education, which forbade them such information and knowledge. Slavist school taught them a different story, a revisionist pseudo-history heavily influenced with Afrocentric themes and Turanid themes.

Macedonians are the Greeks from Northern Greece who trace their ancestors back to Theme-Macedonia, and before that, to Macedonia-Prima, and before that, to the biblical Macedonians, and before them, to the classical-Macedonians from antiquity.

Modern-Greeks connect back to previous-Greeks in backwards compatible cultural-linguistic fashion, without clash and without conflict.

Respect our heritage, Ok Abdul, Mehmetin and Goran!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs do not connect to Macedonia proper or native-Macedonians...but they insist they have history in the Haemus peninsula, not as ancient-Greeks but as Slavic speaking ancient-Macedonians.

The historical debate about Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity being Slavic speakers and different to Greeks was initiated by FYRoM's Slavists.

Afrocentric-Induced, Turanid-Influenced Slavists...die-hard Communist-Slavists attempted to put distance between the ancient-Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks.

The ancient-Macedonians were the founders of the Macedonian name. The name was spawned from the Greek-Hellenic language. Historical records and archeaological evidence to date, points to them being Greek speaking Hellenic peoples.

Ancient-Macedonians were indeed, in-fact and in-reality, Greeks. Classicist scholars and academics alike find no real differences between them and other Greeks.

The Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain and Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage...FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs do not connect to them, not at any real, meaningful earthly or natural level.

Because FYRoM is situated on lands the latin-Romans named Macedonia II Salutaris...they could have so easily elected to distinguish themselves using the Secunda suffix, or the Salutaris prefix in their name...but they didn't!

They call themselves ethnic-Macedonians when no such ethnicity ever existed in historical verity. FYRoM's much vaunted Macedonian Identity is a fabrication, it is actually based on deception rather than on factual historical, archaelogical, cultural or linguistic evidence. FYRoM was nurtured into statehood by political expediance rather than by academic or political correctness

That FYRoM's recognition as "Republic of Macedonia" was based on poor, sub-standard, ill though-out, flawed advice, bears testament to the geo-strategic aims and agendas of that American administration of GW Bush, when in November 2004 his advisors (wrongly) advised him to unilaterally recognize FYRoM as (RoM) Republic of Macedonia, prompting others to follow suit...at the expense and exclusion of Greek concerns.

If being Macedonian means being Greek in the first place...then Greece has right to defend and protect it's National-history and cultural-heritage.

When the lands of your ancestral forefathers has carried it's ethnic-racial, cultural-linguistic, ethnogenic birth-name, the name it took from since the time of it's conception...that name should be respected. That name should be officially recognized as belonging exclusively to them, to their heritage, right!

The Macedonian name is a Greek concept, spawned from Hellenism, the Greek-Hellenic language and from Greek speaking Hellenic people wanting to overtly express their ethnic-racial roots and cutural-linguistic affiliations.

The Macedonian name, passed-on from father to son and from mother to daughter, Greeks, one and all, using their right of self-determination to pass their Macedonian Identity onwards, from one generation to the next...is there any doubt about this academic reference point ?

When peoples move from one geographic location to another, they carry their ethnic-racial, cultural and linguist birth-names with them, Greeks did this wherever they went.

The best example for demonstrating Ownership of a particular Ethnogenic-Name, is when you carry that name with you from one geographic location to a completely different geographic location, and then proceed to stamp your name over that new territory.

Example 1...Theme-Macedonia under Greco-Roman Rule
Example 2...Macedonia-Pima under Latin-Roman Rule

Both, Latin-speaking Romans and the Greek-speaking Romans knew about Ownership over names and over geographic locations.

In Example 1: When the Greco-Roman Byzantines took an executive decision to move the peoples of the Empire from Macedonian lands to Thracian lands, they took the Macedonian Name with them, this decision demonstrated Ownership, not just of the land but over the Name. Thracian lands were named "Theme-Macedonia" a military district set-up to protect the peoples of the Empire from the excruciations of the Bulgaro-Slavic Invasions attacks and Incursions.

In Example 2: When the Latin-Romans took an executive decision to name the ancient-Kingdom of Macedonia to Macedonia-Prima, this decision demonstrated Ownership, not just of the Name but over the Land. The latin-Romans distinguished the original lands of the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon from the Paeonian lands and Dardanian lands they added-on later, when they expanded and extended Macedonia to cover over Paeonia and Dardania.

The latin-Romans kept original Macedonia Greek, by naming it Macedonia-Prima, meaning the first and foremost Macedonia in contrast to Macedonia II Salutaris, meaning the Second-Macedonia or the beneficial added-on Macedonia.

Like I said...the best demonstration of Ownership over a Name is when you take that name, I mean, carry that name with you from it's nascent ethnogenic original location to a completely different geographic location.

Romans, both latin speakers and Greek speakers knew how to demonstrate Ownership over Names and Geography...the best examples are Ilustrated above.

If Greeks are Not permitted to Own the Macedonian Name, then at least it should be given the recognition it deserves as belonging in the Greek domain and the Macedonian Identity to Greek heritage.

Real Macedonians are the Macedonians that remained loyal to Hellenism, proud to have retained that (Greek) language and that (Hellenic) culture which ultimately connects them back to that civilization and to that campaign their ancestor's initiated to expand (Hellenism) the Greek-Hellenic language, knowledge and culture to the farthestmost regions of the then known world.

Macedonians are the Greeks from Northern Greece who trace their ethnogenic, cultural-linguistic ancestors back to Theme-Macedonia, and before that, to Macedonia-Prima, and before that, to the biblical Macedonians, and before them, to the classical-Macedonians from antiquity.

Modern-Greeks connect back to previous-Greeks in perfect, backwards compatible cultural-linguistic fashion, without clash and without conflict.

Todays Greeks claim quite legitimately, custodial responsibility for the ancient-Hellenic legacy which does include Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

The Hellenic Republic is the successor state to the old Byzantine Empire which makes modern-Greeks heirs and Inheritors of the Byzantine legacy, their history and their heritage...through them and in perfect backwards-compatible well-documented fashion, back to the ancient-Hellenes.

FYRoM's Slavist-Indoctrinated ex-Yugoslavs, teamed-up with some Turanid-Indoctrinated Turkics to Rubbish the modern-Greeks, in the expectation they could justify their presence in the Haemus peninsula as being somewhat indigenous and native Turkics and Slavics, in a region of the world steeped in Greek history.

After 21 years of FYRoM's existence...What have they really achieved. Viewed by Europeans as the most Afrocentric-Induced, Turanid-Influenced, Slavist-Indoctrinated country in Europe, an extension of Turkey in Europe!

@ NICK MALAKA.
FAT GOOD the ETHNOGENIC GREEK- HELLENIC NAME & MACEDONIAN HERITAGE HAS DONE ME! I HAVE JUST BLASTED MY BRAINS OUT STANDING IN FRONT OF THE GREEK PARLIAMENT!
FUCK YOU STAVROS!

looking at both sides of the equation, i think the greek side swing it for me.

the greeks are black africans, the black figures are depicted on artefacts pottery etc. the greeks show figures bearing rounded shields depicting their african heritage, indo- european and macedonian heritage bore elongated shields, these are depicted on artefacts. the macedonia were pelagasi or white men and bear no relationship to the african greek. the greek alphabet is derrived from the phoenician alphabet, the greek do not have their own original alphabet. the macedonian alphabet 'cyrillic, continues today to be used by a sizeable portion of mankind. this is the forbearance of a significant civilsation. greek mythology was unfortunately and poorly thought out by career building oxford and cambridge don's thousands of miles away from the region. the greek language is full of macedonian words!

If being Macedonian means being Greek in the first place...the Abduls Mehmetin and Gorans of FYRoM should respect that, in the same way the Greeks respect the right of the Christian Orthodox Slavs of FYRoM to call themselves Macedonian, in the geographic sense and in the Slavic sense.

Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people...something FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are only now finding out! For years, it was forbidden to learn this information in the Slavist schools of the old-Yugoslavia.

That Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people is also omitted from Turanid pseudo-scriptures. Both
Ideologies teach their respective Turkic and Slavic children
pupils and students that Greeks dont exist, they were created by the West in order to cheat the Turkics and the Slavics from their real history and heritage in the Haemus peninsula and Anatolia respectively.

It must be difficult for the Abduls Mehmetins and Gorans of FYRoM to learn for the very first time, that they are not the Macedonians they thought they were or were told they were.

Slavists taught them to think of themselves as Macedonians and to think of ancient-Macedonians as Slavs!

Slavists and Turanids tell them they are Macedonians because they speak Macedonian and live in Macedonia, but as we have learned in depth from reading this Thread...

...Nothing is further from the Truth!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs do Not speak Macedonian...their so called Macedonian language is a hybrid mixed concoction properly called Serbo-Bulgarian but innapropriately called Macedonian for deception reasons.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs do Not live in Macedonia...they reside on ancient-Paeonian lands and ancient Dardanian lands, there is Nothing Macedonian there.

The latin-Romans named that place where FYRoM is right now to Macedonia II Salutaris...meaning the Second-Macedonia in order to distinguish it from the ancient-Greek Kingdom.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not Macedonians...and they are learning this information for the very first here on the Internet.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are the sons and daughters of Serbians and Bulgarians...they are blood relatives to both! The reason for them adopting a Macedonian Identity in the first place can be traced back to the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1878. Slavists wanted to segregate in order to seperate the common peoples of the Haemus into Slavs who would be loyal to the Bulgarian Exarchate, from the Greeks who had historic loyalties to the Patriarchate of Constaninople.

Had the Russians not revived Bulgaria as the oldest known legitimate Slavic entity in the Balkans...FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs would be Greek speakers now and loyal to the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

FYRoM is empowered both legally and politically to self-determine as Republic of Macedonia but is hampered from doing so...burdened by the Moral and Ethical Obligations not do so, because by doing so loses FYRoM respect on the basis, smart people know them as South-Slavs of the Serbo-Bulgarian variety and know Macedonians to have always been a Greek speaking Hellenic people. Under these conditions FYRoM appears to be between a Rock and a Hard place!

One thing is for sure...the West have lost patience with FYRoM!

There are Macedonians (link to macedonia-evidence.org) and there are those who want to be Macedonians (link to europa.eu)

Is it right for FYRoM to disrespect the Greeks in their own homelands...but worse than this, is it wise for FYRoM to totally disregard the International academic community when they tell FYRoM: Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people.

FYRoM exists, not through the self-determination of its own peoples, who would happily revert back to their Serbian and Bulgarians roots, but through the political designs of an ages old Slavist doctrine. FYRoM would not exist but for those Slavists who demand it. This alone explains why FYRoM will always remain an anomaly, a political and economic failure!

The FYRoM cause died a death the day the International academic community challenged political expediancy.

It was accredited historian scholars and academics alike, that threw down the gauntlet to challenge global politicians who were willing to brush aside historical truth for political expediancy.

That history, like archaelogy and like anthroplogy is a Science, an academic discpline that must be respected, it should not to be ridden roughshod over by political expediancy.

and mine!

It has to be understood that it is not a human-right to want to usurp the Identity of a people from another country, a neighbouring country to boot. History cannot be re-written to accomodate the future political aspirations of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. All educated individuals know them, the inhabitants of that country for who they really are...South-Slavs from Serbian-Bulgarian stock.

There is no moral justification nor ethical excuse for the behavior of the current FYRoM government in wanting to confuse the country's ethnic-racial, cultural-linguistic heritage with that of the ancient-Greek Kingdom of Macedon. FYROM is trying to build a National-Identity based on entirely fabricated history, evidence of their ethnic-Serb and ethnic-Bulgarian past will never go away, it shall always remain as a constant reminder of who they really are and from where they really originate.

The government in Skopje needs to understand that it cannot build a National-Identity based on deception, at the expense of historical truth. Our common international society cannot function nor survive when history is Ignored, much less when history is fabricated in such crude and crass circumstances. FYRoM's mix and match history has been so badly fabricated that all historical figures such as the Bulgarian Saint Naum, Czar Samuil and Kuber etc, plus the Greek ones, like Alexander the Great, Cyril and Methodius have all been falsified-modified to erase their original Bulgarian and Greek Identities.

It seems, from an outsiders perspective, that the peoples of FYRoM are being oppressed by their own government, which seemingly works very hard to hide the country's true Slavic heritage and Serbo-Bulgarian past. All the peoples of this world have the right to know, learn about their own true history and heritage, and in the FYRoM case...Greeks are doing their best trying to teach them, but with evidently limited success.

FYRoM is empowered both legally and politically to self-determine as the Republic of Macedonia, but there are moral and ethical issues surrounding the choice of name.

A European standard ((moral)(ethical)) code of conduct should have hampered FYRoM from opting to name itself Republic of Macedonia on the basis it clashes with a neighbouring Identity.

FYRoM knew full well and in advance that by opting to name itself Macedonia...burdened it's Obligations to respect another peoples Identity, a neighbouring peoples to boot!

Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people!

FYRoM cannot take this name from the Greeks in order to use it for their new country name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

The Greeks have proven ownership over the Macedonian..."Theme-Maced onia" tells all!

If the Greeks are not permitted to have Ownership over that name, then at least, recognition of it, that it is a Greek-Hellenic name spawned from Hellenism and the Greek-Hellenic language.

FYRoM should respect the Seniority of the Greeks in their own homelands. In hierarchy terms, Greeks are the Prima-Macedonians when FYRoM is Secunda-Macedonia...secondary- Macedonians.

Too much effort has gone into De-Hellenizing Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity...that exertion can be traced directly back to Slavist revisionist pseudo-historians and not just the ones from FYRoM.
Greeks live next to primitive TurkoSlavic peoples in a region of the world steeped in Greek history
The Macedonian name is derived from Hellenism and the Greek-Hellenic language...those who deny, dispute or contest this academic reference point are almost always Turkic or Slavic and the Greeks have to live next to both of them.
 

they have the right to enjoy what the greeks enjoy if they mixed with greeks

THE GREEKS TODAY ARE SUCH MIXED ETHNICITY THAT HAS EVOLVED OVER CENTURIES THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW IF A GREEK THAT YOU ENCOUNTER TODAY IS AN ACTUAL GREEK (AND HE MAY NOT EVEN KNOW IT HIMSELF!); THE ALBANIAN/ARVANITES, VLAH, AND TURKISH MIGRATIONS HAVE RENDERED A COMPLETELY "NEW" GREEK THAT IS NOT GENETICALLY CONNECTED TO THE ANCIENT GREEKS, BUT GREEKS DO NOT RECOGNIZE SUCH ENTITIES IN MODERN GREEK SOCIETY AS IT DESTROYS THEIR NATIONALIST MYTHOLOGY THAT THEY ARE "PURE" GREEKS DESCENDED FROM THE ANCIENT HELLENES. AND OF COURSE IT DEMOLISHES THEIR PROPAGANDA THAT THEY ARE DESCENDENTS OF THE ANCIENT MACEDONIANS. THINK ABOUT THIS GREECE IS A MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION AND IT DOESN'T EVEN RECOGNIZE ANY ETHNIC MINORITIES WHAT DOES THIS TELL YOU?? IF GREEKS THINK THEY ARE MACEDONIANS, THEY MUST BE CONFUSED WITH THE FRENCH WORD "MACEDOINE" WHICH MEANS "MIXED VEGETABLES". AND OF COURSE THAT'S PERFECT DESCRIPTION OF TODAY'S GREEKS! LOL. THE OLD ALBANIAN DIALECT ARVANITIKA IS STILL SPOKEN IN RURAL GREECE ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE PELOPONNESE.

I support the greeks on this issue.

Greeks have demonstrated Ownership over the Macedonian name...Theme-Macedonia tells all!

Apparently, Greeks are Not permitted to own the Macedonian name...

...well, If Greeks are not permitted Ownership over the Macedonian name, then at least, recognition of it as a Greek-Hellenic name belonging in the Greek domain.

Posession is 9/10ths of the law!

Recognition is the law!

Macedonians have always been Greeks and Greeks have always lived in Macedonia, even when they had to shift it...lock stock and barrel to Theme-Macedonia in Thrace!

You know a name is yours when you take that name with you to a completely different geographical area and use it to rename that place after your very own ethnogenic name...

...Theme-Macedonia!

VENIZELOS (Famous Greek Statesman - Prime Minister:1910-1920,1932) By Herbert Adams Gibbons, PhD)
Page 346"...It may be useful to add that the present vice-president of Greek Ministerial Council , Mr. Repoulis; the commander-in-chief of Greek army, General Danglis; the commander-in-chief of Naval Forces and Minister of Marine, Admiral Koundouriotis, and the majority of crews of the Greek Navy, speak Albanain their mother tongue".
ALBANIA - The Rise of a Kingdom, by J. Swire - 1971 Page 11: "...In an article in the Greek monthly magazine, Parnassos - February 1916, it is stated that 'the majority of our soldiers speak to one another in the Albanian language...a very deplorable habit...it is expedient that this habit be destroyed by all necessary and vigorous means". Prince Lichonowsky wrote: "...the so-called Greek national dress itself is of Albanian origin".
THE USABLE PAST, by K.S. Brown and Prof. Yannis Hamilakis, Page 140: "As a result of historical factors, much of the rural population in central Greece was Albanian-speaking by the time of the creation of the modern Greek state in the 1830s".
POLITICS IN MODERN GREECE by Prof. Keith R. Legg Page 86 "At the time of independence, the range of local dialects was significant and substantial portions of the poplulation spoke Albanian".
Again from VENIZELOS (above), Page 346. "...Venizelos advanced the famous theory of national consciousness as the test of nationality..."One may be tempted", he said, "to raise the objection that a substantial portion of the Greek population uses ALBANIAN as its mother tongue, and is, consequently, in all probability, of Albanian origin".
EURYDICE STREET - A Place in Athens, by Dr. Sofka Zinovieff, PhD 2004, Page 38: "This preoccupation with Greekness only really began after the War of Independence (1830), when defining what it meant to be Greek became a vital element in a new state - Their first capital was the smart little Peloponnesian port Natplio. It was thought to be far more suitable than the goat infested ruins and the insignificant, predominantly Turkish-Albanian settlement which existed in 19th century Athens".
 
 

FYRoM's choice of name for their newly established Slavic country, nationality, language and ethnicity is inapt and unfitting on the basis the Macedonian name does not bode well with Slavic speaking South-Slavs.

The Macedonian name is an ancient-archaic, regional-tribal Greek-Hellenic name, spawned from Hellenism and the Greek-Hellenic language...this is the sole reason, the Macedonian name is unfit, improper and unsuitable for FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs.

Had FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs opted for a proper, more suitable name for themselves and their new country, their place in the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula would have been assured.

Ofcourse, FYRoM covets the "Macedonia" name and nothing else will do!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs want to self-determine as Macedonians in the ethnic-racial sense, national sense and in the cultural-linguistic sense...this way, they cover all the vital Identity factors which aid in the usurpation of the Macedonian name in absolute terms.

If country name is Macedonia then Nationality is Macedonian.
If language name is Macedonian then Ethnicity is Macedonian.

Country, Nationality, Language, Ethnicity...they want it all!

Greeks cannot permit NoN-Greek peoples to adopt or usurp the Macedonian name exclusively for themselves, on the basis it is an ancient-archaic, regional-tribal Greek-Hellenic name which has been in constant use in the Greek world from since Millenia.

The Macedonian name is definately a Greek name and Greeks have demostrated Ownership over that name...Theme-Macedonia tells all. You know when a name is yours when you take that name with you to a completely different geographical area.

English place-names differ from French place-names, and Spanish place-names differ from Italian place-names!

Names and Geography: When the Byzantine-Greeks shifted the Macedonian name lock stock and barrel, from it's original location to a completely different location...they were making a statement, they were demonstrating Ownership over the Macedonian name, a decision which evidently was light years ahead of it's time.

The Macedonian name belongs to the Greeks, it belongs in the Greek domain and Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage.

If Greeks are not permitted Ownership over that name, in todays politically correct world...then at least recognition of it, that it is in-deed and in-fact, a Greek-Hellenic name.

Posession is 9/10ths of the law...Recognition is the law!

Macedonians have always been Greeks and Greeks have always lived in Macedonia...FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs do not have right to this Greek-Hellenic name, and they must be told that in no uncertain terms!

YOU MUST BE A FOOL! LOOK REALITY SQUARE IN THE EYE!
THIS MAN HAS JUSTIFIED THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA RETAINING ITS NAME DESPITE GREEK OPPOSITION! WE SHOULD APPLAUD HIS CONTRIBUTION! 

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs think they speak Macedonian when in reality they speak Serbo-Bulgarian.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs think they live in real and proper Macedonia when in reality they live in Paeonia and Dardania.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs think they are Macedonians when in reality they are South-Slavs from Serbian and Bulgarian stock.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs think they are the real and only descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity, when in reality they do not connect to them in the ethnic-racial sense nor in the cultural-linguistic sense.

Clearly, FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not the Macedonians they think they are or were told they are!

Macedonians have always been Greeks and Greeks have always lived in Macedonia...the real and proper Macedonia.

So, how did FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs get to this point:

1...Ethnic Engineering
2...Ethnic Manipulation
3...Slavist Indoctrination
4...Slavist Revisionism and Pseudo-History
5...Slavist School Brainwashing in closed-off society
6...Afrocentric Theory Inducement
7...Turanid Theory Influenced
8...Slavist Theory Indoctrination
9...Bred for Purpose to hate Greeks and Hellenism
10..Kept that Way

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs got to where they are today by a combination of factors!

Initially the Victims and the By-product of Slavdoms desires to creat a Nation of NoN-Greek Macedonians, peopled from Slavic stock...to take from the Greeks their Northern Aegean coastal strip but later, they became the Victims and the By-product of both Turanid-Slavist propaganda, a mixture of revisionism and pseudo-history which saw the coming together of Turkic and Slavist pseudo-historians supporting the Idea that Turkics descend from the ancient-Trojans and Slavics descend from the ancient-Macedonians.

Greeks despair but we No give up!

We shall confront Turanids and Slavists the best way we know how!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs must be encouraged to respect their Slavic heritage and the only way they can do that is to distance themselves away from the ancient-Macedonians.

Those who blur the distinction between Who is Slav, and who is Macedonian...here is the ultimate test.

You know when you are Slav...when your name ends in any one of these Slavic name endings:

1...ski
2...ska
3...ov
4...ev
5...off
6...eff
7...ic

If you Walk like a Slav and Talk like a Slav, and have a Slavic surname with one of those Slavic endings...there is a high probablity, you are Slavic.

Macedonians were Never Slavs and their names did not end in those now familiar Slavic name endings.

Macedonians have always been Greeks and Greeks have always lived in Macedonia...FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are nearing the end of their long and arduous Macedonian journey!

The vast amounts of energy and the sheer effort required in maintaining a fabricated Identity has led FYRoM's governing elite to make plenty of mistakes...one of those mistakes was to erase the Greek-Hellenic element from the ancient-Macedonians, this was only practical in FYRoM itself.

In the outside world, the Greekness of the ancient-Macedonians shines through!

If being Macedonian means being Greek in the first place...Slavic people must respect that.

FYRoM's Macedonian adventure has led it where exactly ???

FYRoM must accept the reality...Greeks hold the Seniority position at the hierarchy table boasting fraternal ties, cultural-linguistic connections and historic links to the ancient-Macedonians from classical antiquity. Ties which bind modern-Greeks to ancient-Greeks in perfect, backwards compatible fashion with no conflicts or clashes.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs can not boast these ties, links and connections!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs can not claim ancestral inheritance to the ancient-Macedonian legacy, on the basis they are a Slavonic peoples...something they deny, or at least some of them deny their Slavic heritage.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs could claim ancestral inheritance to the ancient-Macedonian legacy through their Greek-Hellenic connections...but that would necessitate them to acknowledge the fact that at least some of them, are from partial-Greek ancestry.

And if that were proven, it would still only limit their entitlement to that of partial-Greek inheritance.

I have said this before: If Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity mean that much to our Slavic speaking neighbours...they should make an attempt to Re-Hellenize themselves ((willingly)(voluntarily)) and return back to the fold.

Slavic countries should prepare to release them from the Shackles of Slavdom, FYRoM could then search-out it's Greek-Hellenic roots and ethno-origins, only these ties could bind it to Hellenism and the cultural heritage of the Greeks, without them FYRoM remains Slavic and unconnected to the ancient-Macedonians.

A true dilemma for FYRoM...stay Slavic and lose Alexander the Great or find those Hellenic connections and enjoy what the Greeks enjoy, a cultural-heritage to be proud of.

HAHAHAHA NICK THE ALBANIAN IS SO DESPERATE TO HIDE HIS ALBANIAN ROOTS JUST LOOK AT HIM IT'S PATHETIC.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jMNSbs1kJV7G0pl6gF_L2kZVR5aw?docId=ac5bc29684f54e849468d3e28f17bbf9
When the scientists compared the ancient DNA to that of modern-day Europeans, they found that the farmer's DNA was most similar to Mediterranean populations like Cypriots and Greeks. In contrast, the hunter-gatherer DNA most closely resembled northerners like Finns.

looks like the greek nick guy was right from the beginning.

and another think, slav and turc same almost, not much differe from them

THERE ARE NO PURE GREEKS! GREEKS: ALBANIANS IN DISGUISE POST 27/04/2012 ESTABLISHES THAT MODERN GREECE A PRODUCT OF THE LONDON PROTOCOL 1830 WAS A CONTRIVED STATE (KING OTHON OF GREECE, A BAVARIAN PRINCE)  FORMED FROM A MIXED AND SIGNIFICANTLY ALBANIAN POPULATION. WHAT MAKES MODERN GREECE ANYMORE ENTITLED TO THE NAME MACEDONIA THAN REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA PARTITIONED IN 1913 BY THE TREATY OF BUCHAREST. NOTHING! ZIP!NICK THE GREEK CONTINUES WITH HIS ILLOGICAL RAMPLINGS!
IT"S ALL GREEK TO ME!

Fabulous post by Greek Nick. 
I too, believe Turkey is not ready for EU entry.
I did not know about the Yugoslavs though, I thought they disliked the Turks.

 First, there was this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ancientgreekmapsandmore/485525355/in/set-72157600180650809

and then, this happened:
http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/history/migration/chapter131.html 

And now, Greeks have to live next to miserable TurkoSlavic peoples...hell-bent on altering the demographics in the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula, homeland of the Greek-Hellenic peoples.

DO GREEKS CONSTITUTE A PEOPLE, OR ARE THEY MORE OF A FOLLOWING, A CULT?? BASED ON A LIFETIME OF EXPERIENCE AND INTERACTION WITH "GREEKS", THEY'RE MORE OF A CULT.
I'VE MET SO MANY PHONY AND FRAUDULENT GREEKS, SO MANY MIXED-ETHNIC GREEKS, THAT I DON'T BELIEVE THAT "PURE" ETHNIC GREEKS EXIST AND WHAT I WILL SIMPLY CALL "GREEKISM" IS A RABID FOLLOWING OF "GREEKS" WHO HAVE SUPPRESSED THEIR REAL IDENTITY.
 

JUST GOOGLE "ARVANITES" AND SEE HOW MANY "GREEK" NATIONAL FIGURES WERE REALLY ALBANIAN.
"ONE MAY BE TEMPTED TO RAISE THE OBJECTION THAT A SUBSTANTIAL PORTION OF THE GREEK POPULATION USES ALBANIAN AS ITS MOTHER TONGUE, AND IS CONSEQUENTLY, IN ALL PROBABILITY, OF ALBANIAN ORIGIN"
"AS A RESULT OF A NUMBER OF HISTORICAL FACTORS, MUCH OF THE RURAL POPULATION IN CENTRAL GREECE WAS ALBANIAN-SPEAKING BY THE TIME OF THE CREATION OF THE MODERN GREEK STATE IN THE 1830S".
"AT THE TIME OF INDEPENDENCE, THE RANGE IN LOCAL DIALECTS WAS SIGNIFICANT AND SUBSTANTIAL PORTIONS OF THE POPULATION SPOKE ALBANIAN".
"THE SO-CALLED GREEK NATIONAL DRESS ITSELF IS OF ALBANIAN ORIGIN"
"THE MAJORITY OF OUR SOLDIERS SPEAK TO ONE ANOTHER IN THE ALBANIAN LANGUAGE...A VERY DEPLORABLE HABIT...IT IS EXPEDIENT THAT THIS HABIT BE DESTROYED BY ALL NECESSARY AND VIGOROUS MEANS".
"THE MAJORITY OF THE CREWS OF THE GREEK NAVY, SPEAK ALBANIAN THEIR MOTHER TONGUE"

GREEKS: ALBANIANS IN DISGUISE THANKYOU FOR YOUR LEARNED ARGUMENT, OTHERS HAVE ALSO CONTRIBUTED FACTUAL AND PERSUASIVE EVIDENCE, BUT NICK THE GREEK SURPRISINGLY CONTINUES WITH AN UNMODIFIED DIATRAB THAT WILL NOT REFUTE OR ABSORB ANY OF THESE FACTS. THANKYOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTION< INSIGHT<SCHOLARSHIP.DON"T WASTE YOUR VALUABLE TIME WITH THE LIKES OF NICK THE GREEK!

GOCE DOLCEV: Attended Bulgarian Military Academy

The childhood & early youngness: Goce Delcev was born on February 4th year 1872 in Kukus, Aegean Macedonia.

He was from patriotic Macedonian family, who gave more revolutioners.

His Father was Nikola Delcev and his mother Sultana Delceva.

He finished the primary school in the native place Kukus. Later he worked temporary in his father's restaurant and in a small market place. Then he sign in the Male Secondary School in Solun (Thessaloniki). He lived in school boarding school. He was wonderful and excellent student. He read a lot of books with socialistic, revolutionary and philosophic contents. He was a member of the Secret School Revolutionary Membership.

In the summer 1891 he went in the military school in Sophia, Bulgaria.

In the period of three years spent in the military school, he read a lot of socialist and especially revolutionary books.

In September 1894 he was (terminated) turned out from the school activities. Actually Goce got a diploma, but without the right of being an officer.

Basic rule of thumb: Macedonians have always been Greeks and Greeks have always lived in Macedonia...the Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain and the Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage, this completes the rule of thumb.

FYRoM is left with no other choice but Macedonia-Secunda as the only viable (solution) name which can be attested to on the basis of geography...FYRoM is situated on ancient-Paeonian lands and ancient-Dardanian lands which the latin-Romans renamed to Macedonia II Salutaris when they took the decision to enlarged and extend Macedonia proper.

The ancient-Kingdom of Macedon, the Romans named Macedonia-Prima meaning the first and foremost Macedonia, the Greek original!

FYRoM alienated a whole nation of Hellenes and the global Greek diaspora...but they also alienated the academic profession who's classicist historian scholars staked their professional carears on the dissemination of Graeco-Roman classical history.

FYRoM went to war with the Greeks and world academia, they started a vile and virulent hate campaign against the modern-Greek peoples and a pseudo-historical propaganda campaign to destroy Hellenism in it's own primordial homelands...and FYRoM lost!

Now, FYRoM's Macedonian journey is nearing the end!