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Who Cares about Serbian Interests in Kosovo?

Published on , , Sofia

Kosovo Albanian customs officers are deployed as of September 16 on two checkpoints at the border with Serbia despite resistance of Kosovo Serbs and discontent of Serbian officials.

The EU Rule of Law mission had to use helicopters to transfer customs officers in order to avoid road barricades lifted by Kosovo Serbs. Thus control over the checkpoints Brnjak and Jarinje has been handed over from the NATO troops (KFOR) to EULEX's customs and police officers who will be technically assisted by Kosovo customs officers.

This move helped Pristina indeed to put in place its plan to establish order and control on its entire territory and especially in northern Kosovo that still slips out of the central authorities' control because of its loyalty to Belgrade and the presence of parallel Serb structures in the area.

Kosovo Prime Minister Hashim Thaci thanked KFOR, EULEX and the western countries for their support for the operational plan of his government to establish border control over checkpoints in the North, Vecernje Novosti daily reported.

EULEX deputy head Andy Sparks explained that the actions of the mission should not surprise anyone as Belgrade had been informed about them. The European Commission on its part said that the European mission actually implemented the agreement between Belgrade and Pristina on Kosovo customs stamps and that this was a step towards establishment of a proper customs system throughout Kosovo.

A tiny detail comes to light here - the agreement on the customs stamps does not include border control or at least this was not publicly announced although it appeared to had been implicit.

Back then Belgrade boasted that it had managed to reach a status neutral agreement because the stamp is to read "Customs Kosovo" without any state insignia of the breakaway Serbian province.

The Kosovo Serbs have voiced scepticism over the deal.

Having in mind that KFOR and EULEX are determined to implement the plan to change border control, they have two options, according to the Danas daily. The first one is to implement it by force, the second - to close the border crossings which could lead to a total blockade of the Kosovo Serbs living in this part of Kosovo.

NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen, who was on a visit to Kosovo on September 15 said that the alliance's forces were ready to react in case of violence and was explicit that KFOR would not allow any destabilisation of the situation.

Politicians in Belgrade keep on saying that the dialogue is the only way to find a solution to the problem and this could be achieved only by peaceful means. No specific actions, though, have been announced so far.

And while Serbian politicians are trying to figure out what to do, an unexpected attack came from the Russian ambassador to Belgrade, Aleksandr Konuzin.

Russia's diplomatic representative - the country said to be Serbia's closest ally in the battle against Kosovo's independence - has attacked harshly and with a language not typical for an ambassador the Serbs, accusing them of not defending the interests of their country regarding Kosovo. The ambassador's outburst during a Global Security Forum in Belgrade on September 15 was triggered by a statement of one of the participants in the discussion that Moscow had been defending Serbia only led by its own interests.

Very emotionally Konuzin asked in English: "Are there Serbs in this room? Do you care about destiny of your compatriots [in Kosovo]". The reaction came after not a single question was asked about the deployment of Kosovo Albanian customs officers at the border crossings. According to him this attitude shows that the Serbs do not care about the situation in Kosovo. Konuzin stressed that no one else but Russia would defend Serbia's interests [at the upcoming UN Security Council session on Kosovo] and left the forum after the audience demonstrated it did not want to hear what else he wanted to say.

Comments on Internet-forums after this statement ranged between praise (bravo, he has right, he only said what 90% of Serbs actually think, instead of criticising think how the western ambassadors have behaved so far) and criticism (outrageous behaviour, he should be declared persona non-grata, intolerable for an ambassador).

In reaction to Konuzin's words, the leader of the opposition Liberal Democratic Party, Cedomir Jovanovic, said that Serbia was not a colony and as a sovereign state it should not tolerate the diplomat's insults. Jovanovic urged institutions to react immediately to this behaviour.

Serbia has repeatedly said that it should not be forced to make a choice between Kosovo and the EU but would it be forced to choose between Russia and the EU?

comments
AdamNYC
19 September 2011 19:24
Well thats the thing... the entire dialog is taking place because of serbias abysmall failure at the icj... having painted itself into a corner, it agreed with eu prodding to sit down and speak with the people it has pretended dont exist.

obviously this was done to appease the EU, but it has put serbia into a horrible position.

no matter serbias insistence that it, despite the icj ruling..will not recognize Kosovo, the fact remains that the talks, are Direct Talks between the Republic Of Kosovo and the Republic of serbia.

What Serbia "needs" ... is to hold talks with kosovo to keep the eu happy, while simultaneously expecting the republic of kosovo..to not be the republic of kosovo. an imposssible situation to be sure.

The republic of serbia, has no authority of any kind within kosovo..that is per UN1244 wich serbia still holds on for dear life to.

What kosovo authorities did by reciprocating a trade ban...was to illustrate 2 points. It is the responsibility of the un/kfor and eulex to bring the rule of law over all of kosovo... but they were complacent with the north because of the threat of violence by serbs and allowed serbias foreign funded institutions to take hold... illegal under un1244. And It illustrated Serbias absolute lack of authority within kosovo... after all its one thing for them to have complained about it, but it was quite another for them to have lacked any ability at all to claim what kosovo was doing as illegal. the govt. of kosovo is the only legitimate govt. Instead you hear a whole lot of lip service about "unilateral" actions... that alone shows what serbia is desperately after, the very word implies they are somehow "partners"... its implied that they have a legal "say" in kosovo's internal matters when it clearly does not. it is in fact a foreign govt.

You will notice from the serbian side, how the initial barrage of complaints...the very idea that kosovo "couldnt" apply a reciprocal ban ...that it was "illegal" has all but dissipated.

What serbia hoped, in its lightening fast capitulation regarding kosovo customs stamps, was a "situation-neutral" goal... it was a desperate hope to RETURN the situation to the comfortable status quo it was before. That internationals would not want to "rock the boat" so to speak. But that gambit failed.

The bar as it were has moved, serbia blinked and so did the international community... the customs issue put a spotlight on their own complacency.

Border officials were not discussed, nor would there be any reason for it. The republic of kosovo certainly wouldnt feel the need to bring it up... why would any govt. "discuss" with a foreign govt. its decisions on it its own borders.

and serbia certainly wouldnt have brought it up.. it simply would have confirmed they have no legal authority at all... just as with kosovo's reciprocal ban.

What we hear no is more of the same... the constant cry of "unilateral" actions, the claim of "willingness" to talk... all for the sake of somehow, someway inserting Its....at this point... imagined authority.

Again, the dialog that is occurring are DIRECT talks between kosovo and serbia... the international community are mediators... not the middle men passing notes and authority between 2 non speaking sides.

The bottom line is that kosovo has declared its independence... with all that occured in the former yugoslavia and the theft serbia attempted to perpetrate within it... it is quite frankly impossible for them to somehow "negotiate" a theft where force and violence already failed.

but that is what serbia wants... to turn Dialog into Status Talks... but they will only anger and embarass the EU by doing so, after all. Kosovo is a willing participant in dialog, serbia put forth and signed along with the EU a UN resolution stating their willingness to hold technical talks.

The international community must apply the rule of law throughout kosovo, that is their mandate, authority and there insistence. and the govt. of the republic of kosovo is the only legitimate authority in kosovo... like the macedonian and more recently the montenegrin borders, kfor handed control of the borders to Kosovo authorities as is there mandate. Competency will be handed over to kosovo...not a foreign govt. Serbia has never been asked/consulted/ or otherwise involved in it.

The only relevance serbia has...is the threat of violence. it will not hesitate to incite and financially support it.. but will of course disavow itself of any responsibility.

It can move forward and denounce violence period. or it can continue to support it and the handfull of violent serbs who pose a threat to no one else but serbs, blocking the free movement of serbs, and walling them into an isolated ghetto..."for their own good."

the hypocrisy is astounding, especially after the amazing restraint of what are supposed to be the evil and inhuman albanian police at having an officer murdered.

serbia must make a choice, propaganda hasnt done a thing for them in the past few decades, it certainly wont start now. They cannot claim democracy and eu aspirations while trying to appease its violent nationalist fringe.

And russia of course, happily supports and fan the flames of any and all violent serb nationalist tendencies to come along.to the detriment of everyone in the balkans and including serbs.
anonymous
19 September 2011 22:55
How that AdamNYC sees any relation between Hague Tribunal (a paid instrument of USA agressive policy) and territories where people live? So you can just deny right to every Serb to have own goverment on its territory, just because USA financed and equipped Thaci aka "Snake" (human organ trafficker). In order to install its troups on Serbian territory. By the way, Serbs mostly love self-government, neither USA nor Russia. But it is clear now that USA is like Nazi Germany in the starting years of WWII, thinking themselves above all others.
AdamNYC
20 September 2011 03:06
@anonymous

i am sorry, you have the icj...the united nations international court of justice, confused with the hague. Or more to the point, you have your propaganda mixed up.

The international court of justice involvement came at serbias DEMAND...the abysmall failure i spoke of was not regarding the litany of serb leaders ...handed over to the hague by serbs themselves. But to the fact that the majority of judges came from countries that did not yet recognize kosovo or flat out opposed independence... that it was actually favorable to serbia, and still its ruling shocked all as it was anything but ambiguous and quite clear.

And yes, serbian leadership certainly put in a lot of effort to explain "what they really meant" but that nonsense is propaganda aimed at serbian ears.

there is nothing in the world to stop serbia from continuing to further challenge the legality of kosovos independence. Not only is it serbia and serbia alone that refuses to do so, as i mentioned... serbias official response to the verdict was to hold technical talks with the very same people it has pretended didnt exist for decades.

this is the reality in wich serbia finds itself, and we, and the international community are simply seeing for the umpteenth time the dishonesty serbia is capable of. as i have said "anonymous" propganda hasnt done a thing for serbs in the past few decades, it wont start now.

like it or not, throughout all of the violence that wrecked the balkans, the only common denominator accross all ethnic, religious and political lines have been serbia and serbs. There are 7 new nations today who have 1 definitive thing in common, and that was to free themselves from serbia and serbs.

 yes, serbs have a hundred and one reasons and explanations and conspiracy theories all of wich help them avoid a shred of responsibility. none of them can change the fact above. it really is disheartening to see how little serbs have changed.

and no, serbs do not mostly love self govt.... they cannot conceive of a govt. in wich they are a minority. from bosnia and kosovo,even disproportianate representation is "inhumane"

with regards to kosovo serbs...these are not freedom fighters, nor are they fighting for any equality that was lost. As milosovic and serbia in what was the former yugoslavia stole kosovos yugoslav rights representation and powers using force and violence...these kosovo serbs, despite the speed in wich they will claim they did not support a lunatic and madman...still very happily and thoroughly enjoyed being on top of the apartheid food chain they found themselves in didnt they?

And kosovo albanians, amazingly enough gifts to these very same people..the very same rights, representation and powers that were stolen from them...and more. and still they have the utter audacity to cry foul... it is quite disgusting.

Made even more so considering that the republic of serbia... does not provide its minorities an iota of the rights that kosovo serbs can enjoy or even bosnian serbs can enjoy.

i understand why you would very much prefer to live in an imagined past, twisted present, and not move forward... you would have to acknowledge the simply reality as to what serbia truly want and "mostly" love.

Democracy for themselves, amongst themselves.
JM Pristian
20 September 2011 08:10
@ AdamNYC - thanks, very interesting comment. We are working on RoL in Kosovo and I would be interested in your future comments also.
Cda
20 September 2011 08:56
AdamNYC,
You make some interesting comments and you are correct on many accounts.  Serbia though its thinly veiled attempts to "negotiate" the return of Kosovo (or rather lack of attemps) has successfully painted itself into a corner with little chance of successfully retaining control over the province.  Although I have to take dispute with some of your comments.  I wouldn't say that Serbia's lobbying at the ICJ was an "abysmal failure" as you put it, but rather a resounding success.  You see, I agree with you, if Serbia's government wanted to put an honest effort at retaining control of Kosovo it would have prepared a much better worded resolution, the resolution put forward was specific in the fact that it is obvious that there is nothing illegal about DECLARING independence, now whether that independence meets the legal requirements set out by international law and legal norms is a completely different question.  But Serbia's government put forth the question of if declaring independence was legal, which it is not anyone can declare independence.  Simply put you don't put a group of lawyers and politicians in a room and miss something that obvious.  
The reason for this one might ask? To add to the (justified and correct) comments of Ambassador Konuzin, Serbia is a colony.  The government does not behave as an independent government would, their "mistakes" in the international community are to amateur to be accidental.  
So in many respects I agree with you.
But where I take opposition to your comments (well thought out by the way) is where you seem to "tow the line" on the legitimacy of the "liberal intervention in the former Yugoslavia" and the "Serbs are to blame for all" propaganda line. 
You state that Serbs are the common denominator in every war of the Former Yugoslavia,(firstly you forget the war in Macedonia which had no Serbian involvement but I digress and will get back on point) the reason for that would be because Serbs constituted the larges population in Yugoslavia with large populations in Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, and (obviously) Serbia (Kosovo inclusive).  So yes, because of the geographical location of Serbs in the former YU Serbs were involved, although you easily forget one point.  At no point has there been any consideration for Serbian self determination.  If Croatia and Bosnia are allowed to separate from Yugoslavia because they, supposedly, do not want to live in a country dominated by Serbs then why do the Serbian populations of Bosnia and Croatia not have that same right?  Is Croatian or Bosniak self determination of a greater value and importance than Serbian? Following that line of thought is Kosovo Albanian self determination of a greater value than Kosovo Serbian self determination?  There is a double standard here that exists, and the common response to this is: "Because of the crimes committed by Serbs in the wars of the former YU Serbs have proven they are not fit to rule over other peoples..."  At what point in history has any people or nation proven they are fit to rule over any minority? Never. In the former YU Croatia's first constitution stated that Croatia is a state for Croatians (paraphrased), which clearly excludes minorities, and who was the largest minority there? Serbs.  Was being the operative word, because the majority of Croatian Serbs were ethnically cleansed from their homes during Operation Storm.  Roughly the same amount of Serbs were cleansed from Kosovo after 1999, and then another batch cleansed in 2004 pogroms where many churches and monasteries were destroyed (many of which were UNESCO world heritage sites).  The Kosovo government who are unable to control their territory (a prerequisite for independence and a side not to my above comments) didn't even denounce the ethnically motivated violence.  So the argument that Kosovo's authorities are fit rule minorities can not be argued with that example. 
As a side note to demonstrate my point further another example of a state not being fit to rule minorities (and to show that its not just us backwards Balkan peoples), currently the government of France is working to legislate new laws that make it illegal to pray in public.  This is a move directed at France's growing Muslim population, because I highly doubt that when the next World Youth Day is held that the Pope will be prevented from holding mass in public, nor do I think that French Police will be stopping Orthodox Christians from praying outside their churches during Easter Mass.  Historically administrative discrimination precedes violent discrimination.
To close; at no point am I attempting to minimize or excuse the crimes committed by Serbs during the 90's, but to use the argument that Serbia's use of violence precludes that they do not deserve to rule other people should lead one to the same conclusion of other former Yu states and as such: Republika Srpska should become a part of Serbia, Sandjak apart of Bosnia, Mitrovica and other Serb populated parts of Kosovo apart of Serbia, remainder of Kosovo to Albania, half of Macedonia to Albania, Istria to Italy, north Western Romania to Hungary and so on.... 
I also have a lot to say about the myth of "liberal or humanitarian intervention" but I've already taken more than my fair share of space... 

Lazar
20 September 2011 10:02
Cedomir Jovanovic implied in his remark that Serbia is not a colony of Russia, which is correct. It is a colony of the west however.

He would rather be conquered by west which bombs his country and steals its territory, than be a colony of the east without any bombing and stealing of territory.

Also, why don't you mention that USA ambassador to "Republic of Kosovo" has financial ties to the company building roads in Kosovo, and that it is in his personal interest to "solve" this customs issue? Read more on nspm.rs (a site of real Serbian patriots, not traitors like Cedomir Jovanovic)
AdamNYC
20 September 2011 10:37
Hey CDA

Im afraid you fell into the usual trap...something serb apologists use often to mire the situation as it happened. conveniently speaking of it in hindsight, ignoring some pesky little points.

You say... "At no point has there been any consideration for Serbian self determination."

well thats just it, you jumped into the question of "if croatia an bosnia could seperate" then "why not serbs"... makes perfect sense at the onset...but you are ignoring altogether any reasoning.

cause and effect. Did they spontaneously just decide to split?
there is certainly alot of nationalist hatred floating around to explain it away..but is that really it?
They just didnt feel like it anymore?

Here is what you have not acknowledged.

preceding any declarations of independence and all the violence that followed..you can look at kosovo and vojvodina then autonomous provinces with federal Yugoslav rights representation and powers, despite there "mere" autonomous status, there federal powers were not only the equal to that of the other republics..but they even had veto powers within the serbian govt. (this was a scheme to appease these autonomous regions for not having been given full republic status)

It is often touted how milosovic "stripped" them of these powers...but that is not true. As president of serbia (not yugoslavia) slobodan milosovic and the serbian govt. had no such authority of any kind.  The force and violence he used, was To WIELD those federal powers and representation on their "behalf" to the detriment of the other republics.

This absolutely tilted the precarious balancing act that was yugoslavia... milosovic quite literally gave himself and serbia illegal and undo power over the rest of yugoslavia. and he did so with force. seriously, does it really need explanation of what this would have triggered?

make no mistake, rampant nationalism was everywhere...but no one other than serbia made that very first real grab at taking it all. this is the point wholeheartedly ignored by serb apologists when speaking of yugoslavias breakup. I ve never seen it honestly confronted, and i do not think its the slightest bit unfair to "pin" the blame on serbia... it was indeed the lit match, it precipitated everything that followed.

You will notice i am not attempting to draw on violence as a reasoning, i am not seeking to demonize serbs by saying they intended to eat bosnian and croatian children. No, the aftermath seems to be what serb apologists seem to want to focus on. What i am saying, is that milsovic met with no dissent amongst serbs, inside or outside serbia, only wild accolades as they made a very real, very calculated Choice.

personally i simply refuse to believe milosovic and serbs in general where not well aware of what their very real political actions were and would lead to.. Its too much of an insult to common sense that it was anything but an act of aggression on their neighbors.

so to revist your initial statement... "they, supposedly, do not want to live in a country dominated by Serbs "

thats neither true and ignores the point that they did NOT live in a country dominated by serbs... but that is absolutely what they were looking at. they were faced with very real aggression. unlike bosnian and croatian and kosovo serbs who were already minorities... Milosovics new "alternative" vision for "yugoslavia" was quite appealing. No, i disagree wholeheartedly that there was a double standard.

I would agree, that slovenia, bosnia and croatia... having been given a very concrete reason, was more than happy to bail on the concept of "yugoslavia" and could have cared less about each other... they certainly didnt care for kosovo and the rest... but that doesnt not preclude the fact that it was indeed serbia and serbs that made the first move.

additionally, the idea of "serbian self-determination" is actually a newer flavor of propaganda. if you can stomache the idea, it was actually the "defense" and "protection" of so-called yugoslavia that serbs used to justify violence at the time... they wanted to stay in "yugoslavia" ( wich by this timewas milosovics very new entity that was not recognized as a continuation of the former SFRY..even by russia)
Lazar
20 September 2011 11:06
Adam, all your extensive writing... what's the purpose? To avoid the actual issue at hand: seventy years ago there were about 30% serbs on kosovo. Today there are almost no serbs, and even those few western countries totally disrespect and don't want to give them any rights to live in country they want. KFOR dropped fliers yesterday in north Kosovo saying that blocking roads is violence and that it will deal with that. Why didn't it deal with dozens of devastated churches, it just by-standed and observed. That was real violence.

Hypocrisy and double standards of the west are clear as day and night. If you don't get them, well that's you....

Anyhow, I *tried* reading your long comments but they are so off the point and dwelling into *selective* history that I just couldn't read the whole thing. Did you forget who was arming Croatia, or shiptars? Same countries who are still pulling the strings through our puppet government.

http://lnk.rs/QVbaab
Willem
20 September 2011 11:54
Unfortunately Konuzin is right. The guest list for this kind of events is full of people from NGOs paid by Soros, the National Endowment for Democracy and other Western interest groups. In obedience these NGOs employ only people who support the opinions of their paymasters. And their employees know that if they would start a discussion about the events in Kosovo at such an event their contracts will very likely not be prolongated.

The consequence is that other points of view are rare or absent at this kind of conferences and that they are classified as pro-Russian, nationalist, reactionary, etc. if they happen.
anonymous
20 September 2011 16:47
I find it interesting how Serbians say they need the right to govern themselves.  Meanwhile, Milosevic removed all Albanian Authorities and the Autonomy Status in Kosova but I guess the Serbians forgot all about that.
Cda
20 September 2011 21:18
Adam,
In your 'cause and effect' argument you state that Croatia and Bosnia decided to split as a result of Milosevic's actions.  And while claiming I ignore conveniently, you forget that there was political wrangling in Yugoslavia before 1990.  Milosevic, Tudjman, and Izetbegovic collectively were the worst combination of politicians for the survival of Yugoslavia.  Tudjman was a Nazi apologist and neo-fascist whose goal was an ethnically pure Croatia (see his manifesto and the recent Hague Tribunal rulings regarding Operation Storm), Izetbegovic also a Nazi sympathizer would be what western security analysts deem a "Islamo-fascist" (again see his manifesto), Milosevic, lacking a manifesto was, at best, a second rate politician with a desire for dictatorship, who lacked the political foresight to be able to navigate his tin pot kingdom between the lines of "great power influence", and as much of a nationalist as the other two.  So using your argument that the people of Serbia obviously knew what Milosevic was about when they supported him then the same can be said of the people of Bosnia and Croatia.  Hence, following that line of logic, where Tudjman and Izetbegovic are what they write, the logical response for the minority populations living in those territories is to resist.  The same is logical for the Albanian population of Kosovo to resist Milosevic's "reforms".    
Concluding the above point, if Milosevic's vision for Yu was appalling, then the visions that Tudjman and Izetbegovic had for their respective republics was equally appalling, and those visions were cultivated and theorized well before Milosevic was in a position of power. 
Focusing on Kosovo, which was Mr. Konuzin's point of departure and the initial topic of our discussion; the claim that Kosovo was a "happy place with a peaceful populace" (I know you didn't say that but I'm exaggerating a popular misconception) is simply inaccurate.  In 1980 the New York Times ran an article (I wish I could quote you the exact date) in which it was detailed that Serbs were being ethnically cleansed from Kosovo by the majority Albanian population, in response to these "forced migrations" the central government in Beograd did little to nothing to alleviate the situation.  Serbs were forced to leave and have never returned.  Now returning to your cause and effect argument, with the autonomous government in Kosovo doing nothing to prevent crimes against Serbs and the central authority in Beograd also remianing complacent (essentially to prevent an already restive population in Kosovo from becoming more violent against the central authority), cause and effect would argue that a politician such as Milosevic would enjoy popular support among a populace who feels (justifiably) threatened.  And the restive nature of Kosovo's population and the aggressive policy towards Serbs there can not be associated to Milosevic in any way.  Hence his administrative reaction is an effect of the "complacency" of crimes committed against his compatriots (cause).   This further illustrates my point that beginning Yugoslavia's history in the late 80's /early 90's ignores as much history and "pesky facts" as you claim I ignore.  

Cyrillic
20 September 2011 23:01
anonymous I think that you are Albanian since you say KosovAMost of Albanian forgot that Vuk Drašković and many other Serbs were against Milošević, they also forget that there was really small number of Albanians who supported Milošević and were members of SPS.
About Čedomir Jovanović. He doesn't like Russians at all and is always in some fights with embassy. I don't know why maybe west is paying him or he read Dostoevsky who said that libelars work against their nations so he found himself there or what ever. 
AdamNYC
21 September 2011 05:12
@lazar
whats the purpose? perhaps id like to see it all finally come to a close?

my first post was directly related to current events... all my other comments including this one is responding to you guys, rehashing on whats past. because the same fundamental issues that started yugos demise are still very much in play?

what i did was speak of events as they happened...the very real choices made.

You could argue those points...they are not selective. And it took no effort at all. Simply stating political choices that were made.

I will have to assume that you could find no fault with them... what you would prefer is speak of the hate and violence and delve into contorted history to either "interpret" what are otherwise clear choices... or better yet, bury them entirely.

It makes it much easier to do isnt it?

@cda
sigh... that good old nyt article, yes im familiar with it, Staggering how its still coming into play by serb apologists. everyone can google david binder the author of the article to read up his article on  yugoslav communist officials (coincidentally serbian) views of the time of albanian nationalism. Happily, yugoslavias crime reports never quite matched up to the fiction.

what i tried very hard to do cda, was to refrain from the emotional, to just look at facts.

what you would like cda, is for me to now list some examples of evil serb behavior, and then you respond in kind, then i respond in kind...

sorry, this is your comfort zone. at worst, reduce everyone to being the same...equalize things, at best, get the other guy to be worse than you, either way... you win?

Ok, You win CDA. all of the propagandist nonsense that even serb politicians today refrain from regurgitating is absolute fact.

Albanians were rabid animals seeking to drive serbs out of kosovo by any means necessary.

you win.

now that, that is out of the way... what did slobodan milosovics and serbias theft of kosovos constitutional federal rights and representation in what was yugoslavia ...fix?

simple enough isnt it? what did it fix? how would it have saved serbian lives from the imminent threat of evil albanians?

ah but you see thats where your logic and propaganda fails. you see, by having inhuman animilastic albanians being a dire and imminent threat to poor serbs, it certainly makes any violence taken against them "appropriate" doesnt it? in fact, why would we even want or need to talk about broken laws...when you can point to a dead serbian child?

but it seems to me, CDA... if albanians goal was to murder serbs, changing a law wouldnt have done anything... you would still  have had to kill these animals off...right?

for every situation in the former yugoslavia, serbian propaganda has a set script, we get to talk about violence against serbs, and time travel through history and revisit every injustice real an imagined against serbs, and delve into the intrigue of worldwide foreign political plots against serbs.

but the script ultimately intends to justify violence. CDA, you are still using milosovic era propaganda.. the political choices dont mesh...The logic, at least to me.. falls apart.

Even when you "win" cda... its still perfectly fair for me to ask the question...

what did slobodan milosovics and serbias theft of kosovo's constitutional federal rights and representation in what was yugoslavia try to "fix"

you see, when I think of that question... i cant see at all how would it have saved a single serbian life from maniacle albanian masses. can you? In fact, it seems to me that its purpose was something else entirely.

What do you think?

Is this the part where i am trying to trick you? but there is no need to fear, remember that you have already won, albanians were trying to cleanse the area of serbs. Weve got that. How did this political action in what was yugoslavia intend to help prevent it?

 Is this where we hear about western plots coming into play? or perhaps lazar can chime in with something that occured in WW2?

I see.

even regarding tudjman and izetbegovic.. you are talking about evil intentions...yes they were indeed evil weren't they? and the horrific and very real violence that occured in the aftermath of yugoslavias breakup.

but you are being dishonest when you attribute to me...

"So using your argument that the people of Serbia obviously knew what Milosevic was about when they supported him then the same can be said of the people of Bosnia and Croatia.  Hence, following that line of logic, where Tudjman and Izetbegovic are what they write,,,"

That was not my agrument at all... as i said previously, nationalist rhetoric was everywhere... But Milosovic didnt just  "intend" to do things like strip kosovo of its rights... he DID so. Milosovic didnt just "intend" to use undo and illegal power againsts the other republics... he DID so. You can say tudjman and izetbegovic were what they wrote... but Milosovic was what he DID.

come now, prior to any declaration of independence... the kosovo member of yugoslavias rotating presidency was put in a jail cell... a milosovic appointee was sitting in the seat. I'm afraid that's a tad bit more descriptive of what was actually happening at the time than claiming "everybody" had the same intentions. As ive said, croatia and bosnia did kosovo no favors... but honestly,  how much of a saint would people have had to have been to not react negatively.

for the writings, and plans, and intentions of others... Im sorry CDA, milosovic didnt just ride the wave of nationalist rhetoric, he acted on it, and acted first. and he was cheered for it. thats a hell of a pesky fact to try and dodge.

lazar
21 September 2011 05:58
@cda

maybe these articles from NYT: http://lnk.rs/QXbaab

@adam

You need to focus and be more coherent.

Can You Imagine, Kosovo? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nHWsWOgtiw

"...or perhaps lazar can chime in with something that occured in WW2?"

Why not see what's happening now? Same as in WW2 if you think for a moment.

But I don't worry. History is long. Israel is patient. So is Palestine. Shiptars were patient. So will Serbs be. Justice will prevail.

Good night.
Cda
21 September 2011 07:07
Adam,

Your arguments circle the belief and claim that any fact that is contrary to your belief is being an "appologist".  But at no point have I denyed crimes by the "side" I'm argueing for, whereas you have only accepted the crimes of your "side" with patronizing sarcasm.  This, if you only look at facts is far closer to the definition of an appologist than what you claim I am.  Because if you look through my posts visa vie yours I am not denying arguements you make that are based in fact, I'm only providing another perspective on the events the had transpired with facts that you are omitting.  
 
"You can say tudjman and izetbegovic were what they wrote... but Milosovic was what he DID." -- I already said that.  I haven't denied what Milosevic was, you fail to accept what the other leaders were, without patronizing sarcasm.

"Im sorry CDA, milosovic didnt just ride the wave of nationalist rhetoric, he acted on it, and acted first. and he was cheered for it. thats a hell of a pesky fact to try and dodge." -- I'm not dodging it, I'm pointing out the fact that the other nationalist (and equally counterproductive to peace) leaders of the Former Yu were also cheered for their actions and intentions.

The remainder of your argument is riddled with counterproductive sarcasm which I haven't given to you. In fact your arguments paint the world in a manner that had been depectied in the "spagetti western's" of classic American cinema.  One side must be the good guys the other must be the bad guys, 'they' are to blame, 'they' are not.  Unfortunatly the real world doesn't operate in this manner.

You also made (again) sarcastic mention of a plot against Serbs.  I don't believe (and I doubt Lazar believes) there is a world wide conspiracy against Serbs, Serbia just isn't that important.  That being said, if you believe that the countries that would constitute "the great powers" haven't taken the opportunity to influence and control the decisions of the peoples of the Former Yu then you have a great naiveity in your understanding of the International Relations.  I can be 100% sure that any decisions made by the government of Kosovo are not made with out "great power" acceptance.

Cda
21 September 2011 07:11
Lazar,

I think that's it.
anonymous
25 December 2011 20:44
...another WAR is coming..., sorry.. USA and albanians made it for now.., but not to long
crazy but not stupid
24 April 2012 12:31
AdamNYC you are obviously willing to stay oblivious to the rights that Serbs should have.

You spend too much time and words trying to defend yourself with patronizing sarcasm and some 'guilt-justice'. This will not work.

The only reasons Serbs are in this situation today is because western powers are having too much influence. As we can see they are in deep trouble now and as more time passes less of their resources and time will be spent on Serbian issues. And with it Serbs will probably get a new government that will work for its people. Instead of todays puppet one.
The situation in the region is only at this state today cause the west is keeping Serbia down. The time when Serbs will become free and not occupied will come. Economy will improve and the country will get stronger.
You can not say the same thing for countries that are under the protective banner of the west. Since they weren't put under the oppressive rule of puppet governments that work for sole destruction of their people.

With the lose of influence and power the west is facing, And the changes in the politics of some countries ( like the France) who are going to turn towards Russia who supports Serbia for centuries i just can not see how the west will keep Serbs suppressed and for how do you think that Serbs should not have the same rights and live under their own rule. If everyone else can live under their own rule than the Serbs have the same right.

But in the end the ones with power decide everything, so it just depends whats in who's interest and who has more power. And its obvious that BRIC countries are the emerging power while the west is failing. So with time everything will come in place.
 
Wishful thinking form my side? Maybe. But look theres 70% unemployment in Kosovo. They get money from drugs and organ trafficking and support from USA and NATO. When they lose influence cause of rise of BRIC i wonder if they will continue supporting their failed projects?
This will lead to change, cause with out money they cant keep control in those regions. Who will be the first to gain control? ...... well guess..........
And for Bosnia its only a matter of time when the internal problems of the NON-Serbian part will explode. Since they are also under control of west, with loss of influence power and so on so will the problems between muslims and Croats escalate. Serbs should have no problems with this since they basically live in a separate state within the false state that's created by the west and maintained only cause of the pressure/influence of the West. But for how long will the west have power and influence....
James
18 August 2012 18:52
crazy but not stupid, you are obviously brainwashed by Serbian propaganda of the 90s, further more, you think you can still push it today. 
The reason why Serbia is in this situation today (as it was in the past) is only because Serbs decided it to be so. No foreign power "western" or "eastern" would have any real influence in Serbia unless Serbia's officials would not allow them to. So, before you jump to ridiculous conclusions of "hidden" conspiracies or western powers wanting to "take over Serbia" remember that it's your politicians and your government who is inviting and welcoming foreign interests in your Country. That takes care of that.
Now in regards to Kosovo. It is a totally incorrect assumption that Kosovo's unemployment rate is 70%. Officially the unemployment rate in Kosovo is 43% but it's surely lower than that because a number of Kosovars work without getting registered (in order to avoid paying taxes) in the so called "gray economy" which still exists in most Eastern European Countries including Serbia. Kosovo has major economic issues, granted, but it's firmly on the right track and it is slowly improving. This year alone the GDP increase in Kosovo is predicted to be between 4% and 5%. On the other hand, latest news on Serbia's economy is that, officially this year Serbia is in recession and it's GDP this year will decrease for at least 1%. 
Now, about the organ trafficking propaganda. You know what it actually is? It is text book Serbian propaganda of the 90s and nothing more, one would expect Serbs to be more creative but surprisingly they failed. I can literally imagine Serbian nationalists in power sitting down and trying to come up with the worst possible crime that exists out there and than try to pin it down to the "evil" Albanians in order to try and get some sympathy for their cause and try to balance the genocide they were responsible for in Kosovo. Of course, there never was any organ trafficking of any kind but, how can you beat 12,000 Albanians killed by Serbian terrorists in only 3 months during 1999? The answer is you can't, but what you can ATTEMPT to do is come up with an "original" lie so that at the very least you try to balance that. "Albanians are terrorists" propaganda backfired, "Kosovo is an Islamic state" didn't work, "Kosovo independence is declared against international law" was ruled down by the ICJ itself,  so Serbs had to desperately come up with a new, more enhanced way of getting sympathy in the world and at the same time have more media coverage, and fast. Consequently, "organ trafficking" is the result of that research. Today, every time Kosovo is mentioned in any occasion whatsoever, Serbian officials try to desperately push the organ trafficking story, of course, even Serbs know it's a lie, but at the very end it doesn't even matter if it's a lie or not as long as it "sticks" in the ears of others as "something horrible that evil Albanians may or may not have done". Some would ask why do Serbs lie so much? Why do Serbs feel like they can justify any terrorist action they perform by convincing themselves as the victims of everyone and everything? Well, it actually dates back from many, many centuries ago but I will not get into that right now. What I will do is quote Serbia's "father of the nation" and most respected writer Mr. Dobrica Cosic who said and I quote: "We lie to deceive ourselves, to comfort others, we lie for forgiveness. We lie to fight the fear in ourselves, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else is a form of our jad. Lying if a form of our patriotism and the proof of our intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively. "
Need I say more?
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